Riddle me this... (ENDING SPOILERS!)

[Firewalk]

Ok this is something that bugged me a for while ever since I saw the "sacrifice Chloe" ending.

The lesson here I guess was that Max's power would have way too big of an impact on the environment to be used for anything good, at least that's how I interpret it. She goes back through the butterfly picture and lets Chloe die, because she cannot use her powers ever again (because she thinks that's what created the storm).

Ok now my question:

When she goes back, she KNOWS that Chloe will be killed. So she won't have to rewind right?

So here's where I call plot hole:

She doesn't even have to use her power to save her. She could go back, hit that fire-alarm like before, and done. No use of her power at all and never again, hence no snowfall/dead animals/eclipse/tornado.

Chloe would be safe. Max has all the knowledge about the coming week now, so she can get Jefferson and Nathan arrested. Kate will be saved too and we already know it is possible to deal with Frank without getting anyone involved killed.

The ending result would basically be what would have happened in Episode 1 if Max knew to hit that fire-alarm right away.

So I'm sorry, I hated this particular ending because it denies my common sense. Sacrifcing Arcadia Bay may be pretty selfish, but at least it makes sense. What do you guys think? Am I overlooking something here?

[Palatine Katinka]

The Max that knows only plays out that scene and then returns to the date and time she used the photo. The week-that-then-is plays out with a Max that is unaware of the future and would act without that knowledge until replaced by our Max on Friday afternoon, who would in turn have no memory of the 'real' past week as experienced by everyone else. She could still try to save Chloe and then write a bullet point list for herself of all the important details but I think she's supposed to have accepted that things can't be perfect and trying often leads to something else bad.

[x[pricefield]]

It's not actually using her power, but changing events that supposedly cause the tornado... I call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on that too. Because even without saving Chloe in the bathroom the tornado comes as we see in the 2 alternate timelines (SF and William). Someone posted a thread about how Max was assuming responsibility for the tornado but she isn't really the cause, some other outside force is causing it. I'm inclined to agree with this theory.

[Palatine Katinka]

Originally posted by pricefield is my otp:

some other outside force is causing it.

Maybe it was Samuel. He seemed to know stuff was up and was conspicuously absent at the end (except for cameos in Max's nightmare).

[x[pricefield]]

Seriously we are prolly over analyzing now, but if it was intentional it speaks for the direction Season 2 could take.

The only real choice for me (and anyone else with a heart if you think about it) is save Chloe.

Hear me out, I know everyone assumes that Arcadia Bay is completely destroyed and everyone else dies, but that is obviously not the case. Yes, there are certainly dead bodies in the Obstacles ending, but there are a couple that are covered and no one can possibly believe that happened during the storm.

What the choice comes down to is this; absolutely 100% let your best friend (girlfriend) die or potentially allow people in town to die if they were too stupid to get to shelter with a HUGE TORNADO coming... Honestly, Darwin is to blame, not Max.

Sorry for hijacking your thread and making it a Save Chloe thread, but it seemed you were inclined that way anyway.

[Jeckenn]

The weak part is that the storm was ALREADY coming before the washroom shooting, the game started with Max in her vision of the storm. So how was the storm caused by an incident that took place after the fact?

This is why there is really only one ending, SAVE CHLOE!

[Doesnotcompute83]

Originally posted by pricefield is my otp:

It's not actually using her power, but changing events that supposedly cause the tornado... I call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on that too. Because even without saving Chloe in the bathroom the tornado comes as we see in the 2 alternate timelines (SF and William). Someone posted a thread about how Max was assuming responsibility for the tornado but she isn't really the cause, some other outside force is causing it. I'm inclined to agree with this theory. :LIS_butterfly:

If the tornado was because of Max, it is more about her changing any event, which is why it was still happenin' in the SF and William timelines - Max did not destroy her winning photo and texted David during class in the sf timeline. In the William timeline, she went back 5 years to save William.

HOWEVER, you reminded me of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photo of her winning photoin the past. Shouldn't that cause a butterfly effect?

[x[pricefield]]

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

Originally posted by pricefield is my otp:

It's not actually using her power, but changing events that supposedly cause the tornado... I call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on that too. Because even without saving Chloe in the bathroom the tornado comes as we see in the 2 alternate timelines (SF and William). Someone posted a thread about how Max was assuming responsibility for the tornado but she isn't really the cause, some other outside force is causing it. I'm inclined to agree with this theory.

If the tornado was because of Max, it is more about her changing any event, which is why it was still happenin' in the SF and William timelines - Max did not destroy her winning photo and texted David during class in the sf timeline. In the William timeline, she went back 5 years to save William.

HOWEVER, you made me thought of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photos of William and Chloe in the past.

According to the Butterfly Effect there's almost zero possibility that two different major alterations such as saving Chloe and saving William would result in the same eco disasters. Something else is clearly altering the state. Something that ALSO is negated by letting Chloe die, however that cannot be the actual act that is required to stop the storm.

[windblade]

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

Originally posted by pricefield is my otp:

It's not actually using her power, but changing events that supposedly cause the tornado... I call ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on that too. Because even without saving Chloe in the bathroom the tornado comes as we see in the 2 alternate timelines (SF and William). Someone posted a thread about how Max was assuming responsibility for the tornado but she isn't really the cause, some other outside force is causing it. I'm inclined to agree with this theory. :LIS_butterfly:

If the tornado was because of Max, it is more about her changing any event, which is why it was still happenin' in the SF and William timelines - Max did not destroy her winning photo and texted David during class in the sf timeline. In the William timeline, she went back 5 years to save William.

HOWEVER, you reminded me of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photo of her winning photoin the past. Shouldn't that cause a butterfly effect?

If she never saved Chloe, she would never travel back in time to destroy the winning photo. By preventing the event where she discovered her power, all her previous time travel was undone. Thus, no storm.

That doesn't resolve all plot holes, of course. It's almost impossible to avoid some plot holes in a time travel story.

[Doesnotcompute83]

Originally posted by pricefield is my otp:

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

If the tornado was because of Max, it is more about her changing any event, which is why it was still happenin' in the SF and William timelines - Max did not destroy her winning photo and texted David during class in the sf timeline. In the William timeline, she went back 5 years to save William.

HOWEVER, you made me thought of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photos of William and Chloe in the past.

According to the Butterfly Effect there's almost zero possibility that two different major alterations such as saving Chloe and saving William would result in the same eco disasters. Something else is clearly altering the state. Something that ALSO is negated by letting Chloe die, however that cannot be the actual act that is required to stop the storm. :LIS_butterfly:

But the thing is that saving William didn't cause the eco disasters, it was Max using her time powers to save Chloe. The follwing is very confusing and could be a plot hole (you will see why) due to the nature of the game, but the cause of the eco disasters is due to Max changing time in the bathroom, where she had received her powers and then used a photo to go back in time to save William. That said, how did she get her powers in the alternative timeline? It is possible for the universe to make everything in synch, so at one point during that week, alternate Max received her powers. Just by her changing time even going back in the past to save William didn't prevent the tornado as she went back in time.

By not interferring with Chloe in the bathroom undos all the time travelling events that soon follows including going back in time to see William. The point of the series is how Max used her powers to save Chloe, which caused the storm.

[Palatine Katinka]

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

HOWEVER, you reminded me of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photo of her winning photoin the past. Shouldn't that cause a butterfly effect?

She also burned the photo five years ago just after William took it and said some things to Chloe that were out of character for her then self.

The closest thing I have thought of to a viable explanation is that everything starting from the snow and ending with the tornado are a culmination of Max's meddling with time. Specific acts don't matter, just that she did something and it all adds up. The only way she knows to stop all of those side effects is to never have discovered her power by saving Chloe. One issue is that there are those effects in the alternate timeline when William lives but that's not an issue if we can assume the Max of that timeline discovered her power through some other event and has also been using it without caution.
An added bonus to that theory is that Max using Warren's photo to rewrite Thursday night/Friday morning undoes all the time manipulation she did in the Dark Room. In turn that means the tornado would be weaker at the end than it was when she went to get the photo, explaining why an 'E6' tornado (literally of the scale) caused structural damage equivalent to one half the strength.

[Doesnotcompute83]

Originally posted by windblade:

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

If the tornado was because of Max, it is more about her changing any event, which is why it was still happenin' in the SF and William timelines - Max did not destroy her winning photo and texted David during class in the sf timeline. In the William timeline, she went back 5 years to save William.

HOWEVER, you reminded me of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photo of her winning photo in the past, in her dorm room. Shouldn't that cause a butterfly effect?

If she never saved Chloe, she would never travel back in time to destroy the winning photo. By preventing the event where she discovered her power, all her previous time travel was undone. Thus, no storm.

That doesn't resolve all plot holes, of course. It's almost impossible to avoid some plot holes in a time travel story.

This is where you are mistaken as Max does distroys the winning in the timeline before she discovers her powers. She tears it up in the bathroom - this is the reason why she takes a picture of the butterfly as she thought it was a better photo.

That said, her destroying the picture in the dorm room rather than the bathroom would cause a butterfly effect in itself as she leaves the torn images in the bathroom in the original timeline, but in the altered timelines, it is ripped up in her dorm room, which is likely puts in her journal as Mr. Jefferson gets discovers it and burns her journal in one of the timelines.

[Doesnotcompute83]

Originally posted by Palatine Katinka:

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

HOWEVER, you reminded me of a plot hole with the Sacrifice Chloe was ending. Max destroying the photo of her winning photoin the past. Shouldn't that cause a butterfly effect?

She also burned the photo five years ago just after William took it and said some things to Chloe that were out of character for her then self.

The closest thing I have thought of to a viable explanation is that everything starting from the snow and ending with the tornado are a culmination of Max's meddling with time. Specific acts don't matter, just that she did something and it all adds up. The only way she knows to stop all of those side effects is to never have discovered her power by saving Chloe. One issue is that there are those effects in the alternate timeline when William lives but that's not an issue if we can assume the Max of that timeline discovered her power through some other event and has also been using it without caution.
An added bonus to that theory is that Max using Warren's photo to rewrite Thursday night/Friday morning undoes all the time manipulation she did in the Dark Room. In turn that means the tornado would be weaker at the end than it was when she went to get the photo, explaining why an 'E6' tornado (literally of the scale) caused structural damage equivalent to one half the strength.

Her destroying the photo five years ago gets undone in the Sacrifice Chloe ending since she never went back in time to rescure William. The two things that is different between the original timeline before she saves Chloe and the Sacrifice Chloe timeline is that the winning photo is ripped up at a different location and Max not revealing herself to Nathan in the Sacrifice Chloe ending. Those two should have caused some sort of butterfly effect especially the 2nd one.

As for meddling with time havin' a snowball effect, I too view it this way. I mean, if it wasn't, then the whales would be alive when Max undo saving William. If the acts don't matter, it makes sense because Max did went back in time and altered things like destroying William's picture and drawing the butterfly on the fireplace or was that undone?

[Palatine Katinka]

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

Her destroying the photo five years ago gets undone in the Sacrifice Chloe ending since she never went back in time to rescure William. The two things that is different between the original timeline before she saves Chloe and the Sacrifice Chloe timeline is that the winning photo is ripped up at a different location and Max not revealing herself to Nathan in the Sacrifice Chloe ending. Those two should have caused some sort of butterfly effect especially the 2nd one.

How can you say the destruction of one photo happens and the other doesn't? They are the exact same situation. She uses the photo to go to the moment it was taken and destroys it within that moment. Both photos were used after she saved Chloe and both moments were before she saved Chloe. If she goes back and doesn't save Chloe, thus never discovering her powers, she either doesn't destroy either of those photos because she doesn't go back or they both stay destroyed because the last iteration of that moment remains. They are the same situation so the same thing should happen to both. You say she didn't go back to save William in this timeline, I say she also didn't go back to prevent herself from turning in the photo because why would she in this timeline without Chloe? Of course, the destruction of the photos in the first place causes a paradox as destroying the photo when it was taken means it doesn't exist later and in turn she then can't have used the photo to go back and destroy it.

Not revealing herself to Nathan is hardly going to make a difference to anything since David is about to burst in catch him red handed. Frankly I'm surprised we see Nathan questioned by police and not lying on a slab given what happened the other time David found out about someone shooting Chloe.

[Doesnotcompute83]

Originally posted by Palatine Katinka:

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

Her destroying the photo five years ago gets undone in the Sacrifice Chloe ending since she never went back in time to rescure William. The two things that is different between the original timeline before she saves Chloe and the Sacrifice Chloe timeline is that the winning photo is ripped up at a different location and Max not revealing herself to Nathan in the Sacrifice Chloe ending. Those two should have caused some sort of butterfly effect especially the 2nd one.

How can you say the destruction of one photo happens and the other doesn't? They are the exact same situation. She uses the photo to go to the moment it was taken and destroys it within that moment. Both photos were used after she saved Chloe and both moments were before she saved Chloe. If she goes back and doesn't save Chloe, thus never discovering her powers, she either doesn't destroy either of those photos because she doesn't go back or they both stay destroyed because the last iteration of that moment remains. They are the same situation so the same thing should happen to both. You say she didn't go back to save William in this timeline, I say she also didn't go back to prevent herself from turning in the photo because why would she in this timeline without Chloe? Of course, the destruction of the photos in the first place causes a paradox as destroying the photo when it was taken means it doesn't exist later and in turn she then can't have used the photo to go back and destroy it.

Not revealing herself to Nathan is hardly going to make a difference to anything since David is about to burst in catch him red handed. Frankly I'm surprised we see Nathan questioned by police and not lying on a slab given what happened the other time David found out about someone shooting Chloe.

That is the problem with a time travelling story, it gets really confusing and complicated. In in the sacrifice Chloe ending, Max has no reason to go the past and rip up the photo to undo saving William. However, the photo of her winning photo was ripped up in her room due to her going back in time and ripping it at that spot. In the original time, Max rips the picture up and leaves it on the ground. The butterfly photo was taken after she tore up the photo. That said, it should be torn up in her dorm room. As for the William picture, it was undone when she entered the winning pic and destroyed it because she would have never met Chloe Price to get the photo and enter it. She got the winning photo since she entered the class selfie pic. This was before she tore it up in the first timeline.

[x[pricefield]]

Originally posted by Doesnotcompute83:

But the thing is that saving William didn't cause the eco disasters, it was Max using her time powers to save Chloe. The follwing is very confusing and could be a plot hole (you will see why) due to the nature of the game, but the cause of the eco disasters is due to Max changing time in the bathroom, where she had received her powers and then used a photo to go back in time to save William. That said, how did she get her powers in the alternative timeline? It is possible for the universe to make everything in synch, so at one point during that week, alternate Max received her powers. Just by her changing time even going back in the past to save William didn't prevent the tornado as she went back in time.

By not interferring with Chloe in the bathroom undos all the time travelling events that soon follows including going back in time to see William. The point of the series is how Max used her powers to save Chloe, which caused the storm.

However, if her saving Chloe in the bathroom in one reality carries over to another reality then the storm happens in ALL realities. At the point where she uses her powers to prevent herself from using her powers we are at a paradox.