Max's remorse ?

[n3rull]

As I played through the game (twice within a week, just for the story, not achievements), I came to wonder... has Max given any thought to what she did to Chloe by abandoning her?

It seems from the game that in the first scene in the truck after Chloe "saved" Max from Nathan, Max "kind of" admits that she's been an ♥♥♥ for not staying in touch. In every subsequent case when Chloe brings that up, however, Max seems to think little of it and has some rebuke at hand like (can't remember exactly) "you can't keep blaming me for everything".

So it seems to me that Max is hanging out with Chloe for the sake of them being old friends and that's it.
Which totally baffles me, because for all I know, Max should be getting pangs of guilt every 20 seconds.

Let's see:


1. While the death of her father, disappointment in her mother, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ness of David and disappearance of Rachel took a toll on Chloe, Max is the only person of the lot who actually betrayed Chloe. Having lived all the timelines Max knows that each of the characters loved Chloe very much and they did all they could for her while they lived. On the other hand, Max never made any effort to contact Chloe for 5 years after moving to Seattle and then for a month (right?) after coming back to Arcadia Bay. Remember that Chloe obviously needed her best friend's support after losing her father and Max must be aware that a lot of Chloe's suffering resulted from being left alone without the person she depended on so much.

2. Abandoning Chloe must be an excruciating memory to Max because of how easy it would have been for her to support her friend.
Assumptions behind this point are (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm Polish and this is US geography + speculation):
- Seattle is just north of Oregon, where Arcadia Bay is. Not on the other side of the continent or across ocean!
- Arcadia Bay is most likely based on Newport in Oregon (Based on LiS wiki and google maps comparison). Even if not, Arcadia bay might actually be further north than Newport (so closer to Seattle) as Warren says a drive in cinema is in "Newberg, just 60 miles away". Well, Newport is slightly further south than that, but let's assume it is Newport for a moment.
Based on these assumptions, Seattle is just 220 miles in a straight line, 300 miles by road from Arcadia Bay and in the same time zone. So:
- Max could've texted, emailed or send a letter every now and then. Seriously, why the hell not?!
- A phonecall should not be a problem every now and then. It's the same time zone.
- It's a freakin' <6 hour drive in good traffic conditions, or a 9 hour train connection! If Max cared about her friend at all, she would've visited. And no, it wouldn't take a "Super-Max" to get this done. Max's parents are always supportive so she would be guaranteed a visit if she said "Listen Dad, I really need to go visit Chloe. She's my dearest friend and she's going through hell now, I feel sooo bad for not being there for her at least once a while, please please please can we go there one weekend?".

So

With all of the above taken into account, Max should be feeling really, REALLY bad about what she did to Chloe ... in fact, this sense of being a filthy traitor is what makes me favor sacrificing AB over Chloe. How can you cause her so much pain and then let her die despite being able to move through time?... but she doesn't really care it seems. Max is either a complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, an emotional dimwit or... I don't know, what do you folks think about this?

[Jeckenn]

The only ending for me is to sacrifice Arcadia Bay, and honestly I don't see it as a sacrifice because I DO NOT see the storm as being any fault of Max Caulfield. How can it be her fault? It was already coming in the opening scene of the game before Max had even been re-aquainted with Chloe Price.

Also Max had to be given the time powers for some purpose and if that only purpose was to torture her about not being able to use them to save the ones she loves then I don't even know what to say about that, it is just pure BS that is all.

[Jdwarfer]

Max is introvert and shy.
I am that kind of person too. I think I understand the lack of communication for 5 years, even if it's a very long time. I won't explain this, but regarding what happened to Chloe with her father... I just understand.
And seeing Chloe again after all this time, and the fact she's not so mad at her, well, Max has a normal reaction. I really see nothing really out of place about all this.

[n3rull]

Originally posted by Jdwarfer:

Max is introvert and shy.
I am that kind of person too. I think I understand the lack of communication for 5 years, even if it's a very long time. I won't explain this, but regarding what happened to Chloe with her father... I just understand.
And seeing chloe after all this time, and the fact she's not so mad at her, well, Max has a normal reaction. I really see nothing really out of place about all this.

I'm an introvert to. In fact, I'm a whole lot like Max myself.

However, Max and Chloe had something more between them, a bond stronger than I ever had with any of my friends. It wasn't just them hanging out together, it was way more than that and they actually promised each other that they will be friends forever. Max made an obligation which she just ignored as soon as she left for the big city.

When people are casually hanging out and helping each other cause they enjoy their company, no big deal. But when you repeatedly reassure someone that you'll do anything for her and then just disappear... that is SOOO WRONG. Maybe a 13yo Max was too young to understand that, but having come back as a grown-up and heard about everything Chloe went through when Max wasn't there for her... that should have seriously moved her.

[Jdwarfer]

She didn't ignored their relationship. I think she was very unconfortable with the death of Chloe's father. That's the point here. She wouldn't have been like that if it didn't happen. And yes she was young and life was simple, until the accident came up...

[Edu, o Cortes]

I think that the fact of William being dead can be related as a reason for Max (which I still don't know why). I mean, in the alternative reality where Chloe's father is still alive, Max did speak to Chloe when she was in Seattle, because she sent messages, even the Caulfields did... maybe Max didn't know what to do there when Chloe needed her friend at most.

[Edu, o Cortes]

Originally posted by Jdwarfer:

She didn't ignored their relationship. I think she was very unconfortable with the death of Chloe's father. That's the point here. She wouldn't have been like that if it didn't happen. And yes she was young and life was simple, until the accident came up...

Was typing the same idea :). It's the one that makes most sense, I don't see any other reason

[Jdwarfer]

I think the game shows how people react over death when they became adults.
Max can't ignore death anymore, and she has to live with it. Because death is part of life, and you can't avoid it.
She had to face it. And during all the game, she used her power to avoid it again and again.
But at the end, she has to admit that she just can't.

[gou]

Originally posted by Wintermonk:

Interesting discussion. I've thought about the story more, and I've begun to think the story was intended to be structured like a classic tragedy in some respects. And Max, not Chloe, is the tragic hero. What happens to Chloe (if you sacrifice her) is devastatingly sad--she dies friendless, sad, frustrated, trying to blackmail somebody into giving her money so she can pay off a debt to a drug dealer. Basically at a low point in her life with no healthy relationships.

Now, you can't, of course, blame all of Chloe's problems on Max. Chloe made decisions and her life is her life. That's true.

However, Max is the one with the "fatal flaw." Like in a Shakespearean tragedy, she has a flaw of character or makes an error of judgment. And, like in most tragedies, she is given the opportunity to fix this, but she does not. Think Hamlet suffering the deaths of innocent people like Ophelia because of his procrastination. He had his opportunities to do the right thing, but he delayed.

Max had failed to keep in touch with Chloe, despite (as some people have said here) the fact that they had promised otherwise. Of course, one could say "it takes two to Tango". Did Chloe attempt to keep in touch? Or had they both simply neglected their relationship and drifted apart as a result of Max's move to Seattle?

Still, Chloe had lost her father, so I think Max should have made the stronger effort to stay in touch and help her friend. She didn't. She made other friends and got absorbed with her new life.

Now that she is back in Arcadia Bay, she has the opportunity to make amends. She failed. She had two months to go and reunite with Chloe and she didn't. If she had, the timeline would have been changed and Chloe would not have died. Also, Max had a very positive influence on Chloe in only a week. If she had been there for Chloe, then Chloe wouldn't have been doing the idiotic thing that got her killed.

So Max is a tragic hero and Chloe is "innocent" like Ophelia in that she died because of Max's failure as a friend.

That said, Max is still an introverted young lady, and I think the story is excessively harsh on her. She gets put through some horrific experiences, given a power she should not be expected to understand, and has the fate of many people put on her shoulders--quite a burden! Even her memories of the week she got to spend with Chloe might simply end up a torment in the years to come, because her time travel/alteration powers gave her a glimpse of what could have (should have) been. She'll realize Chloe will never have those experiences (except maybe some Chloe in a parallel universe!) and the future they could have shared as friends, or more, is forever lost. Yeah, I think that's a bit harsh for a kid her age still trying to figure life out.

This is an amazing in depth look at things. Thanks for typing this up. Really puts a lot in perspective.

[Palatine Katinka]

Originally posted by Wintermonk:

Even her memories of the week she got to spend with Chloe might simply end up a torment in the years to come, because her time travel/alteration powers gave her a glimpse of what could have (should have) been.

I think her memories being painful are heavily implied by the choice of song for that ending:

Originally posted by Chorus of Spanish Sahara:

I'm the fury in your head
I'm the fury in your bed
I'm the ghost in the back of your head

Doesn't really make me think of happiness in the future.

On topic, I think Max does feel guilt for having not contacted Chloe but she doesn't know how to deal with the situation. We can read her journal entries from before the start of the game and see that Chloe was on on her mind and she did want to contact her but procrastinated out of fear that it might already be too late and that lack of confidence that constantly dogs her making her think Chloe might have forgotten about her and moved on. Five years was a long time to be procrastinating but I can see how she would put off the first while by not really knowing what to say and being worrie dabout making chloe feel worse by saying the wrong thing and then as time passes it get's harder and harder for her make that step as she feels worse and worse about not having done it yet.

[Doesnotcompute83]

Originally posted by n3rull:

Originally posted by Jdwarfer:

Max is introvert and shy.
I am that kind of person too. I think I understand the lack of communication for 5 years, even if it's a very long time. I won't explain this, but regarding what happened to Chloe with her father... I just understand.
And seeing chloe after all this time, and the fact she's not so mad at her, well, Max has a normal reaction. I really see nothing really out of place about all this.

I'm an introvert to. In fact, I'm a whole lot like Max myself.

However, Max and Chloe had something more between them, a bond stronger than I ever had with any of my friends. It wasn't just them hanging out together, it was way more than that and they actually promised each other that they will be friends forever. Max made an obligation which she just ignored as soon as she left for the big city.

When people are casually hanging out and helping each other cause they enjoy their company, no big deal. But when you repeatedly reassure someone that you'll do anything for her and then just disappear... that is SOOO WRONG. Maybe a 13yo Max was too young to understand that, but having come back as a grown-up and heard about everything Chloe went through when Max wasn't there for her... that should have seriously moved her.

True. I am shy and on the borderline between being an introvert and an extrovert, and when I was Max's age and younger, I would send email to friends and relatives far away.

I can be wrong, Max could be just as selfish as Chloe, but because she is shy, she shows it differently. We know the whole point of Max rewinding time to help others (not counting saving them from deaths with the exception of Chloe) is to be liked. When Max moved to Seattle, she started a new life over there with new friends. When she came back to AB, however, she never visited Chloe nor the Two Whales diner until she reunited with Chloe.

Then again, Max can be someone who cannot handle deaths lightly. She could have blamed William's death on herself even though it is clear that it wasn't her fault so she refused to be anywhere near the diner, Joyce, and Chloe. I was like that when my friend died during my senior year in highschool. He died during surgery, but I never knew until years later as another friend didn't mentioned how until years later. I had guilt of his death even though I wasn't at fault. Like Max, I too am shy and the type who would have self-doubts.

This theory makes sense since William timeline Max wrote to Chloe all the time until she moved to Arcadia Bay. William Max wasn't around when Chloe got into an accident. That said, she didn't feel responsible for Chloe being bound to a wheelchair

[Flinz]

It's really hard to keep contact with friends that you don't see everyday. More time between last contact more awkward it gets. No matter how hard you try there eventually is less and less stuff to share. It needs to be both sided to work. Even so Max was bad person not to keep touch so kinda was Chloe. She didn't reach out far enough. But game kinda shows how William's death puts distance between those two and making them different characters. Alternative reality Max has totally different social life and doesn't really care much about Chloe other than they once were friends.

[n3rull]

Lots of great replies, thanks a lot.

One thing many seem to be missing here is that Max has a lot of time to realize her part in what happened to Chloe. As said before, I realize she might have somehow made peace with it when she was a kid or when she came back.
However, after a week spent with Chloe who normally would have been dead thanks to her ignorance constantly finding/hearing clear evidence of her involvement in this, also having the knowledge that her new power might allow her to fix what happened to Chloe. Recall that Max believes she can fix everything all the way up to the ending of the game.

Seriously, Max should feel as if she was visiting her best friend in jail on a life sentence, after unwillingly framing her into the crime and holding a piece of evidence that could set her friend free with immediate effect... in her pocket.

[Luigi]

.

[n3rull]

Yes Wintermonk, you have pushed this theory in the other thread and I explained why I dont buy it.

http://steamcommunity.com/app/319630/discussions/0/492378265882721899/#c492378265885775494

http://steamcommunity.com/app/319630/discussions/0/492378265882721899/?fp=2#c492378265886131497

http://steamcommunity.com/app/319630/discussions/0/492378265882721899/?fp=2#c492378265886487846

TLDR (but do read the quoted posts if you want to discuss this, I linked them for a reason!):
It's a cheat. You can claim everything about anything if you open up by treating everything symbolically. It doesn't explain anything, just prevents seeking of explanation.

[Toph]

Originally posted by Wintermonk:

If you look in Max's diary (one of the early pages), she mentions that her parents would often tell her "You have all the time in the world."

It could be that Max took this too heart a bit too much. She delays because she believes she can. "I don't need to today. I'm busy. I will tomorrow." She wrongly believes she has all the time in the world. Before she knows it, a week has passed. Then two weeks.

With Chloe's death, Max realizes she does NOT have all the time in the world. She's been wasting time and procrastinating and now it's too late.

Oh but then she miraculously gets her time travel power and seems to truly have all the time in the world! How convenient!

Some have suggested that this whole story is not to be taken literally. That Chloe died in the bathroom and Max never had a time-rewind power. That the rest of the game represents a battle taking place in Max's head. She is having difficulty dealing with the grief over the loss of Chloe, her own guilt for having failed Chloe as a friend, and her powerlessness now that her window of opportunity to visit Chloe has slammed forever shut.

So the entire story of the game, after Chloe's initial death, could be a representation of Max's inner battle. Will she face reality and let Chloe go, forgive herself for her failure, and move on with life and show love to those who are still alive? That would be represented by the "Sacrifice Chloe" ending.

Of she can continue to dwell on Chloe, run through what happened in her mind, beat herself up over her failure, fantasize about how happy they might have been together, fantasize about literally having "all the time in the world." Fantasize about being Chloe's rescuer, her "Super Max." Will she do this and neglect those who remain because she can't let go of Chloe? This would be represented by the "Sacrifice Arcadia Bay" ending.

I'm all for interpretation, but I definitely feel like you're projecting way too hard with this.

Besides, Pricefield already has a terrible ending. Please understand if some of us are not interested in hearing your theoretical suggestion for one that is much worse.