Do your choices matter?

[Galco]

POSSIBLE SPOILERS



I will say that at first, like many other players, I was somewhat underwhelmed by the final episode of this series. At face value, the last choice does seem to eradicate the value of any prior choices that you've made and make this final one the only one that matters. Only after sitting back and thinking more about the experience did I discover that this was not the case at all. They say that life is about the journey and not the destination. Life is strange, that way. What this game mastered was making you feel and experience that journey like no other has done. Perhaps, in the end, your ability to save Kate Marsh or not "doesn't matter" for example, but you felt it when it happened. Every decision led to a different experience but every experience leads to the same end. Such is life.

I was reminded of the ending to the excellent book/film "No Country for Old Men". I was confused, even left feeling a bit cheated. That is, until I realized that the entire time I was watching the film I thought it was about something it's not. The ending then not only became clear, but also the very meaning of the entire journey itself. And that's why this conclusion to LIS is ultimately satisfying. It was never really about time travel, the supernatural, mystery and murder, or even the choices you make along the way. It's about finding what defines you in yourself and in life. The final decision forces you, the player, to answer that question. In that way, yes, it is the only choice that matters.

Bravo, dontnod.

[epic FUZZ]

nope

[bukkie661]

An interesting take on things. I have been thinking along those lines too, but I discarded it solely based on the given that a videogame is neither a movie or a book. We're interacting with the story and are being engaged on a different level than the passive watching of a movie or the more mind's eye experience of reading a book.

A game is always about cause and effect and a player is always met a force that's at least proportional to what the player is doing. What works in a book or a movie can be very lackluster when translated into a video-game. I think that in a video-game it is very important to tell the player that 'it is over 9000!'. If that's not in the books, then I think that story-driven games should have less gamey-sections and concentrate on telling a story instead of trying to be two things at once.

[AccidentallyJune]

Yes, they matter.

We spend multiple episodes exploring actions and their consequences - tweaking and rewriting actions to get new consequences, but never knowing entirely where those consequences will lead to later.

At the end of Episode 5, we're presented with one last choice, after we've spent another episode pursuing and exploring the consequences of our actions and our revisions.

We're presented the choice to live with the consequences we've created, or reject them.

We're posed three questions, really: knowing everything we now know, can we live with the consequences we've created? Is it fair to force everyone else to live with them too? Do our good intentions in any way change our culpability for what comes next?

And we can decide where we fall on those questions, for better or worse.

[Galco]

I understand your point. I would argue that books or film require an element of choice as well in that you choose which characters to sympathize with or not or what you would or wouldn't like to have happen in the plot, etc. Either way, I think the fact that we can have this discussion is testament to the truly amazing potential of video gaming to create a personal experience. I think we can all agree that dontnod have led the industry further down that path.

[BongoPhone]

nope they don't matter one bit.

[bukkie661]

Originally posted by waywardmouse:

Yes, they matter.

We spend multiple episodes exploring actions and their consequences - tweaking and rewriting actions to get new consequences, but never knowing entirely where those consequences will lead to later.

At the end of Episode 5, we're presented with one last choice, after we've spent another episode pursuing and exploring the consequences of our actions and our revisions.

We're presented the choice to live with the consequences we've created, or reject them.

We're posed three questions, really: knowing everything we now know, can we live with the consequences we've created? Is it fair to force everyone else to live with them too? Do our good intentions in any way change our culpability for what comes next?

And we can decide where we fall on that question, for better or worse.

No. LiS doesn't ask us any question whatsoever. We're merely presented a coin toss between a rock and hard place. A or B both present us with a Fate-â-Complis.

[Galco]

I completely agree, waywardmouse.

[Galco]

Merdakah, for discussion's sake I'm curious what would have been a more engaging conclusion for you.

[AccidentallyJune]

Originally posted by Merdakah:

No. LiS doesn't ask us any question whatsoever. We're merely presented a coin toss between a rock and hard place. A or B both present us with a Fate-â-Complis.

Well I'm sure convinced! Wow! I am bowled over by the undeniable power of your argument!

(It's fait-accompli, by the by.)

[Corban]

Yes they do, all the game you have been seeing how your choices conditioned some scenarios and made even new routes to obtain something.
Did you wanted like... I don't know, near +100 endings (thinking of every choice done in different way). Dontnod is a small studio so can't do that, but they still managed to make a game where your choices actually matters, is just that in the end you have to make the only one choice that matters, do you preffer to let all this happen and save that annoying idiot, or do you can see that is a bigger thing behind and you can actually help all those people with the knowledge you now have (also you helped Chloe since you make her smile again before she dies).

[Galco]

Originally posted by waywardmouse:

Originally posted by Merdakah:

No. LiS doesn't ask us any question whatsoever. We're merely presented a coin toss between a rock and hard place. A or B both present us with a Fate-â-Complis.

Well I'm sure convinced! Wow! I am bowled over by the undeniable power of your argument!

(It's fait-accompli, by the by.)

No need to get ugly with eachother. I think Merdakah has something interesting to add to the discussion. Especially since we didn't have the same reaction to the game's story. I'm not a programmer so to anyone who might have insight, is it feasible that we might soon have a game in which every choice leads to its own end? Would it even be necessary?

[bukkie661]

Originally posted by rlf1810:

Merdakah, for discussion's sake I'm curious what would have been a more engaging conclusion for you.

I can give a very good example of a game that got it right, both in original story and in the companion DLC. The Last of Us and Left Behind.

There are the same futility parallels and that's why I bring this game up. The parallels are:
1) There's an uneven relationship (conflict accounted for.)
2) There's a journey (vehicle accounted for.)
3) There's a growing of trust and understanding. (Whoops, TLOU only here.)
4) There's the ultimate futility of it all. (Conclusion and clarity for the player. Whoops, TLOU only again.)
(Left Behind worked along the same lines in a more condensed fashion, it still beats out LiS.)

While Ellie believes that sacrificing herself to be the cure is the right thing to do, Joel believes that nothing is worth the death of a person he came to love as a father. Why it works in TLOU is because the conclusion is much more explanatory: The Fireflies get wiped out and Ellie will never save mankind because of the selfinishness of one person. And he gets away with it on a lie. Playing through the story I could come to no other conclusion than that Joel was doing the right thing, even though it was morally reprehensible. Picture Joel in the sc*mb*g meme outfit. F*ck you, got mine.
No higher goal, no lofty story, no hidden message. Joel is a major a**hole, but damnit if he's going to lose another daughter. The ending validates the entire story. Everything Joel did, the people he killed, the friends he screwed over, the friends that died for him and even by his hand.
Ellie so much as explains it, "It can't be all for nothing."
Indeed.
I didn't feel shortchanged by TLOU. I was like 'Hell yeah!'.
(And cried a lot.)

Another thing that TLOU got right was the fact that I brought up earlier. TLOU is a game with a story and managed to pull both off admirably.
LiS is a story with a game and can't keep it afloat.
The conflict generator, the uneven relationship between Chloe and Max is out of whack. Max never becomes more than a flunky second fidle to Chloe. There's no growth in the relationship too. In episode five, Max still thinks that Chloe is more important than Max.
There's a journey, but none of it brings any understanding of cohesion. Stuff just happens and only seems relevant when needed. Ellie confronts Joel many times over not being his adopted second hand daughter. Max never confronts Chloe. Chloe starts guilting and Max starts serving. For ever. Extras are brought in, storylines are started and dropped at will. It's a mess and all the balls I was keeping up in the air storywise never meant anything.
There's no growing trust and understanding. Not between Chloe and Max, and not between Max and the other people she interacts with. We're even asked to care for and save a person who we briefly hoodwinked in ep1. Emphasis on people, places and things is all wrong.
The ending is not profound, thought provoking or deep. Secondary story characters are just killed off or conveniently just never mentioned again. Both endings are just that, endings. There's no moral highground to take, or moral low to reach as both endings equally suck, making any discussion about how it ends rather pointless.
I saw the ending and was like 'well, that happened.'.

Lastly, TLOU even did lesbian teenagers better. Sad.

[bukkie661]

Originally posted by waywardmouse:

Originally posted by Merdakah:

No. LiS doesn't ask us any question whatsoever. We're merely presented a coin toss between a rock and hard place. A or B both present us with a Fate-â-Complis.

Well I'm sure convinced! Wow! I am bowled over by the undeniable power of your argument!

(It's fait-accompli, by the by.)

Yes, your internet spellcheck powers are over 9000! Pedantic shrub.

[Spider With Web]

The only choices that actually matters was the ending ones. So you can skip all the episode if you want lol (kidding)

[Meelis13]

tbh episode 5 was oddball that could've easily ended at San Fransisco and i think more people would be happy about that ending than currently are (even despite the fact that it would've taken a whopping half hour to finish)
Choices you made did matter up to very late in episode (not in end, but still late), but ending was really defined by single choice. Ok, i get it that otherwise you'd have to make tons of new endings if every choice would matter and considering episodic nature, 2 endings is good enough, however i am not pleased by the fact that both endings were so generic. Bad type of generic. I mean come on, if you are going to use generic ending, please make us happy rather than sad.
Also it destroyed whole damn story- achievement on its own. Plus ok, i would've at least expected some explanation of why Max had the powers at least if she was not supposed to use them... Or why she had tornado vision BEFORE Chloe was shot. I mean that kinda shows that things were in motion before Max used rewind...

Developers took a risk with that ending and based on both my opinion and feedback i see in forums- i think it didnt pay off at all.