The Moral of the Story (episode 5 ending spoilers)

[Valdyr]

So even though it was the most obvious, hackneyed cliche possible in the time-travel genre, it turned out that the ending is just another "Oh no, time travel caused problems, we gotta go back and undo everything that happened in the story" cop-out. Choices don't matter, trying to do the right thing doesn't matter, the power of friendship doesn't matter, there is Fate with a capital F and nothing you do will ever change anything. An individual, even with extraordinary powers, has no power to actually change anything in this merciless deterministic universe where all outcomes are preordained. In fact, trying to be a good person and help people is how problems start, as we're meant to believe that Chloe's life being saved somehow started the clock ticking on a deadly tornado, even though Max had a vision of the tornado before she ever discovered her powers, much less used them. If you find yourself in the position of having a unique gift, don't use it to help people, or you'll only cause more suffering. I know the French have produced some bleak literature, but I think even Camus would've found this a bit of a downer. Nothing we do matters, everything is all pre-determined, just sit still and wait for oblivion. This is fiction, the writers could've done any number of directions with this story, and they chose the worst possible one.

Wow.

[Valdyr]

For real, was I the only one who really got the impression someone was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with Max during the nightmare sequence? It seemed way too cruel and disgusting to be something someone like Max would think up. When she was talking to the "Other Max" in the diner, I kept expecting there to be a dialogue path that would let me challenge her and get her to admit she's Rachel. Especially after the text from Rachel saying she'd be meeting me real soon.

edit: The nightmare also seems to hate Victoria, who Rachel knew and had some kind of rivalry with.

[Valdyr]

引用自 ManlyMan：

To be fair I forgot Max even blacked out. Just the whole thing seemed just too ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up to even be part of the game. Hell the "Thanks for shooting Chloe", her notebook, the fact that a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ dog is texting me. The whole thing just ♥♥♥♥♥♥ me up.

I was thinking way too highly of DONTNOD and thinking from the way all the "statues" in the diner were guilt-tripping Max that the entire nightmare was just psychological torture created for her by someone else, to convince her she's the cause of everything and she should either kill herself or let Chloe have died in the bathroom. And doing those things would be an ending choice, but it would be a bad ending and you would have failed to uncover the real shadow behind everything that was happening.

[Valdyr]

引用自 ManlyMan：

I actually thought they were going to reveal that Chloe was actually a ♥♥♥♥ the whole time, and really was evil. Even though that would make no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sense it looked like that's what they were trying to do.

I thought that for a moment, too, and thought that it might be something beyond Chloe's conscious control, almost like being demon-possessed, and we would have a choice to believe in her and try to help or believe that the "bad" her was the real her and let her die. And in the space of typing this post, I pulled a possible ending out of my ass that would've been cooler than the one we got.

[Draikin]

It might be a bit too early for me to post my thoughts on the matter, having only just finished the game, but I felt like the game was trying to tell me that, in a not particularly subtle way, saving Chloe was the wrong thing to do. In particular I'm talking the guilt-trip sequence where everyone you pass by is telling you not to let them die. Worse, in the ending in which you do that, nothing is explained. You don't actually know who lives or dies. We spent a lot of time making choices, even saving people's lives (or getting them killed). Yet it seems in both endings, those choices are nullified. In one, everyone presumably dies except Chloe and Max. In the other, all your choices are erased as you submit to fate. The only thing that remains for Max are memories of Chloe.

It's really the Sacrifice Arcadia Bay ending that feels lacking. We don't know if we really changed Chloe's fate. We don't really know who lived or died, or to what extent our decisions mattered. At least in the other ending, there appears to be some closure, even if we don't actually know if Max retained her power or not. It's as if the game is telling us that, because we made a selfish decision, we shouldn't pretend to care about what happened to anyone else.

In terms of character development, Chloe is a great character. Going from a selfish and stubborn person to someone who would sacrifice her own life to save others. Even those of people she disliked. I never expected the game to end in this way exactly because we see Chloe change so much. I was expecting something more meaningful. Suffice to say, both endings are really grim.

[Remy]

引用自 Draikin：

It might be a bit too early for me to post my thoughts on the matter, having only just finished the game, but I felt like the game was trying to tell me that, in a not particularly subtle way, saving Chloe was the wrong thing to do. In particular I'm talking the guilt-trip sequence where everyone you pass by is telling you not to let them die. Worse, in the ending in which you do that, nothing is explained. You don't actually know who lives or dies. We spent a lot of time making choices, even saving people's lives (or getting them killed). Yet it seems in both endings, those choices are nullified. In one, everyone presumably dies except Chloe and Max. In the other, all your choices are erased as you submit to fate. The only thing that remains for Max are memories of Chloe.

It's really the Sacrifice Arcadia Bay ending that feels lacking. We don't know if we really changed Chloe's fate. We don't really know who lived or died, or to what extent our decisions mattered. At least in the other ending, there appears to be some closure, even if we don't actually know if Max retained her power or not. It's as if the game is telling us that, because we made a selfish decision, we shouldn't pretend to care about what happened to anyone else.

In terms of character development, Chloe is a great character. Going from a selfish and stubborn person to someone who would sacrifice her own life to save others. Even those of people she disliked. I never expected the game to end in this way exactly because we see Chloe change so much. I was expecting something more meaningful. Suffice to say, both endings are really grim.

You can be still be grim while resolving most issues and acknowledging player choice. Episode 5 did the former only without real context. Episode 5 isn't bad, but it certainly left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Valdyr]

引用自 Draikin：

In terms of character development, Chloe is a great character. Going from a selfish and stubborn person to someone who would sacrifice her own life to save others. Even those of people she disliked. I never expected the game to end in this way exactly because we see Chloe change so much. I was expecting something more meaningful. Suffice to say, both endings are really grim.

That's a big part of my distaste, too, but let's also think about Max: she goes from quiet, shy and unassertive to a more confident person who tries to help people and stand up for those in need, only for the ultimate truth behind everything to be that her trying to help Chloe is what caused all this. What's the lesson there? What's the message? How is she ever going to try to help someone ever again without looking over her shoulder in fear that the universe itself might punish her for it?

[Valdyr]

引用自 ManlyMan：

I was actually expecting that I was going to get a bad ending for making a bunch of friends, saving Kate, and being nice to Chloe, and to get a good ending I would need to replay and just be total ♥♥♥♥ to everyone.
Or nothing can matter I guess.

I expected a mixture, rather than the ultimate conclusion being that none of it mattered. I would've liked a spread of outcomes between ones where the 'nice' choice lead to a bad result (like Victoria believing your warning causing her to go to Jefferson and be kidnapped), like in the Witcher 3 where helping the persecuted mages flee Novigrad just causes the bigots to massacre elves and dwarves instead and 'bad' choices getting positive outcomes, and the straightforward choices where being nice gets a nice outcome and being a ♥♥♥♥♥ gets a bad outcome.

[djwolf]

引用自 Beardsy：

The point is to make you think more carefully about the choices you make in your real life. There is no rewind irl.

And, there was no rewind in this story. The choices didn't matter because in the end the power to make choices was a bad idea. What eventuated was a non-story - that is, Cloe sat in class and then went to the bathroom - end of a very disappointing story.

[Thoma]

引用自 Valdyr：

引用自 Draikin：

In terms of character development, Chloe is a great character. Going from a selfish and stubborn person to someone who would sacrifice her own life to save others. Even those of people she disliked. I never expected the game to end in this way exactly because we see Chloe change so much. I was expecting something more meaningful. Suffice to say, both endings are really grim.

That's a big part of my distaste, too, but let's also think about Max: she goes from quiet, shy and unassertive to a more confident person who tries to help people and stand up for those in need, only for the ultimate truth behind everything to be that her trying to help Chloe is what caused all this. What's the lesson there? What's the message? How is she ever going to try to help someone ever again without looking over her shoulder in fear that the universe itself might punish her for it?

So basically she could have adpoted the sith way of thinking and let everyone deal with their own problems, become stronger for it if they overcame those or die should they fail. Huh.

In any case, I chose to sacrifice Arcadia Bay as I thought that way the choices I made had a temporary effect at least and not become more than a memory for a single person.

People could also have fled the town, they had almost a week of messed up weather. Kind of a warning sign if you ask me.

[stjohnsbluebox]

This is one of the most twisted morals ever. Let me try and explain that using another story involving time travel, specifically, the 50th Anniversary episode of Doctor Who (please reserve your anti-Moffat comments for Reddit or Tumblr)

Both LiS and DW have supposedly "fated" events. Chloe has to die to keep the universe from going bonkers, and Gallifrey must be destroyed in the Time War to keep the timeline from contradicting itself. Where DW shines is in its optimism in the face of cynicism. The Doctor assumes the destruction of Gallifrey is a fixed point, but never considers that the rules can be bent to both fulfil the timeline and save Gallifrey until the climax of the episode. In the end, the episode delivers a strong message about being optimistic in the face of adversity, and finding hope even in the darkest of situations.

LiS, however, is nihilistic to its very core. Not only does Chloe have to die, Max can't do anything to stop it even though she was given these powers. Any attempt to be optimistic is stamped out, and the game outright calls Max a hypocrite for using her powers even if you've been using them for good (helping Dana with her pregnancy issues, saving Alyssa from getting whacked by random objects etc.) LiS assumes that altruism is a lie, and that the best outcome to all this is to wait for the inevitable, since nothing you do will help anyway. While Uncle Ben was all about "With great power comes great responsibility", LiS says "With great power comes nothing of significance since we are all powerless in the face of fate".

Jesus, man. Did the people at DONTNOD lose their pets before making this episode or something?

[Myth Alric]

I don't know what people are talking about, with the fate stuff. Clearly you can alterate fate and save her. That choice is within Max's power. The unverise does't explode, just a town gets wiped out. However if the town gets wiped out, it seems pretty clear that Max does indeed save Chole and the conflict is resolved. The pice is paid and things go on, with a new fate.

[Remy]

引用自 James：

I don't know what people are talking about, with the fate stuff. Clearly you can alterate fate and save her. That choice is within Max's power. The unverise does't explode, just a town gets wiped out. However if the town gets wiped out, it seems pretty clear that Max does indeed save Chole and the conflict is resolved. The pice is paid and things go on, with a new fate.

But it doesn't solve the fact that the universe still wants Chloe to die, she will have to eventually. But the thing is, the same can be said for everyone in the town, if Max sacrificed Chloe, she only delays the ineveitable for those living in the town, everyone is destined to die.

[amcjkelly]

Couldn't agree more. Too cheap to write a good ending, we already have your money. We don't give a crap would be a shorter version.