(BIG SPOILERS) Questions and then my time travel theory for this game.

[Shinzou]

:long story short, actual theory starts here: http://steamcommunity.com/app/319630/discussions/0/1489987633998524454/?ctp=4#c1480982338943449520 and after

So, playing through a third time, i noticed something that never bothered me before but now did. At the end of Episode one, when you have that vision at the Lighthouse with Chloe, Max actually has to use her rewind power in the vision/nightmare at least once (with the falling tree and again with the Lighthouse itself, possible a third time with the logs, if you are not quick enough). If this is just a vision though and she is not actually there, WHY would she need to rewind to save herself. That leads me to believe she actually travelled to the future in that instant.

On a related note, she also needs to use rewind a lot in the nightmare reality. So that would also mean that she actually is there? Or do her rewinds there represent that she is subconsciously saving Chloe somehow who is dragging her butt to the Lighthouse while she has that Nightmare.

Also, why would she even suggest going to the lighthouse as a safe place when clearly in all her visions so far the lighthouse itself is destroyed by that ship the tornado whips into it? She is however certain it is the only safe place...

Obviously noticed by others, going back and letting Chloe die does not fix anything, since the very act of going back is once again travlling trhough time to change it. Our Max still has experienced everything else and she still brings back knowledge she should not have, thus already breaking that timeline again, even if she never uses any of that knowledge. This is also the first and only time she uses a photo that does not feature her own image somehow. That seems significant somehow, but i can't put my finger on it.

More of an observation. The clocks in the game. First time at the Price house, all digital clocks are reset to flash 0:00 (in Joyce room, as well as on the microwave oven). Ananlogue on wall works normally. I waited there 30 minutes and it advances 30 minutes (wonder what happens if you wait even longer? Does it eventually get night outside? Must test later...) This (and the below) are even interestingly played with when you notice later the wall clock has stopped and ponder if your time traveling caused that... only to find out a lady bug was stuck in the hands, and it resumes normal operation after freeing it.

However the day you get breakfast after the swim, the wall clock shows 5 past 2PM when you sit down at the table and advances only to 15 past when you eat/Joyce shows you the photo album. Breakfast at 2PM? And everybody acts like it is breakfast time, even when you then go to the Diner.

Samuel's weird comment about letting a clock move forward. Obviously seemed like he knew something a lot more about what was going on. And also him talking about Rachel being both the Sunlight and the shadows. A doe being Max's spirit animal when it is clear that it is Rachel's spirit guiding her...

All those damn cute squirrels everywhere. Are squirrels connected to time in some way? Did not find anything.

Chloes graffiti "I can't sleep", which she wrote on her bedroom wall is also inside the entrance of the Blackwell Pool. Or was it maybe Rachel Amber who wrote that in both places? Chloe hasn't been back to school in years, she was certainly expelled before Rachel disappeared. Maybe a cry for help from Rachel. Similar to the "I want to Die" graffiti, which does not seem to be from Chloe either (in the club house/Junkyard).

There are instances that make it seem that Max passes/phases out when she has a vision, and that she actually loses that time in the real world as she experiences the visions. Did she travel to an alternate timeline instead?

At some points later in the game Max also seems to indicate that she forgets what happens when she returns to the original timeline asking Chloe to fill her in. This may have dark implications as it seems she actually just hops through alternative dimensions, inhabiting the Max that actually lives there (or exchanging bodies). However how can these realities be changed to the "better" outcome unless that Max also used rewind. So even if time is divergent creating new timelines with every choice, you can't make a choice you did not know existed. And Max's power is all about learning new things and then using that to change stuff to a "better" future. This leads me to believe that IF everything that can happen did happen in some alternate timeline, then we just see our Max hopping through various timelines and choosing the ones she personally wants to happen. That however means the save Arcadia Bay ending is pointless as this is probabaly the most emotionally destructive for everybody, especially for Max and Chloe.

What is the significance of the Cairn that appears in front of the Dorms later on? Max even wonders "who put that there". It is the same as the one at the lighthouse, and there also Max wonders where it came from. This might indicate everything already has changed. You can't go back and fix it, but just choose your own path now.

Also what is with the Blue Jay in the Price household. There must be more to it than just a photo OP. I mean neither Joyce nor David noticed that for three days?

There is more, but just off the top of my hat.

[Shinzou]

One quick more about the save Arcadia Bay ending. Notice that Max didn't actuall destroy the photo of the Butterfly? She just let it drop...

Also what is Victoria doing at Chloes funeral?

[Jeckenn]

I think the developer was basically trying to introduce the time travel/rewind game mechanic to the player and that is why they made it that way...it is the only reason I can think of..

If you don't try to help Victoria by warning her about Nathan she could very likely be alive because she would not go to Jefferson because she was afraid that Nathan might find her. That is why Jefferson took her because she went to him for help being afraid that Nathan might find her. Of course at that point Nathan was already dead but she didn't know that...

I found that part kind of ironic because if you try to help her you actually end up being the reason Victoria dies...

[Wessssss21]

I'm finding a lot of this to be the problem of trying to write a story and also impliment a video game. Like Jeckenn said from a gaming standpoint it's all about showing the player how rewind can be used, I doubt it connects to the story as written, but it also could. also there is a lot of Story points I think never got used. I would love a breakdown from the actual writers as to certain events as there's so much that never gets explained.
-I'm also onboard with the theory that Saving Chloe is not what triggers the storm as Max gets the vision of the storm before ever seeing Chloe, thus putting the Vision of the Storm as the Catalyst and not saving Chloe.
-But yea between the idea from a Game Developer persepective, to a Writer, and then working off of player feedback. Things got changed, added, removed, from the original story. Just would like to know what that original story was and the "rules" of the world

[WATCH·IT]

Hey, some quite remarkable and original observations you got there.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

There are instances that make it seem that Max passes/phases out when she has a vision, and that she actually loses that time in the real world as she experiences the visions. Did she travel to an alternate timeline instead?

It looks like she can get back instantly, but to experience visions/future she actually has to "watch" it like you watch a movie, in a regular tempo.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

What is the significance of the Cairn that appears in front of the Dorms later on?

Well there is a small possibility that at that time there was someone in Arcadia Bay that liked to entertain himself with building cairns from stones here and there and that those two cairns you mentioned are not connected. But I’d like to point out something else here. If I’m correct, the cairn appears in 4th episode, so after you paid a visit to non-hella-Chloe. Max then restores the original timeline by going back again. In fact, she changes the past a bit then by talking to Chloe before William leaves the house. So something indeed has changed. But how is this related to cairns? No idea. Maybe it is not. On the other hand, the devs let you comment on the cairns twice…

Originally posted by Shinzou:

However how can these realities be changed to the "better" outcome unless that Max also used rewind. So even if time is divergent creating new timelines with every choice, you can't make a choice you did not know existed.

You mean that it’s impossible to alter the reality any other way than by actually rewinding? And using knowledge already gathered in that particular reality when doing so?

Originally posted by Shinzou:

At some points later in the game Max also seems to indicate that she forgets what happens when she returns to the original timeline asking Chloe to fill her in. This may have dark implications as it seems she actually just hops through alternative dimensions, inhabiting the Max that actually lives there (or exchanging bodies)

Similar thing happened in Butterfly Effect, all those Evan's memories lost due to time travelling. But here it’s Present Max that has no memory of the surrounding world, not the Past Max, so I’m clueless here. Still, overriding parallel Max’s instances as described is disturbing on quite a few levels.

While – apart from the story – LiS is basically a video game and gameplay forces some mechanics that has an impact on the story, all those observations and theories are damn interesting.

[Shinzou]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses, trying to further the discussion point by point, if you do not mind.

I am well aware of the meta design of the game, but despite that i am trying to figure out the story as it is being told to us. So i am basically going strictly by in game canon. Which with time travel can always be confusing.

Originally posted by talemore:

Chloe mentioned another Max in Max body when Max jumped through another photo. If it was dimensions Chloe wouldn't been able to remember the prime Max or tell if this was the actually Max she knew. If we limited the amount of Maxes to what we are told by Max herself there are 3 Maxes in the game. We have knowledge about our Max, the second in the nightmare and the third in the alternative and I'm guessing each are symbolizing: Light, Dark and shade. It's not impossible Rachel is alive in another of the three possible worlds.

That is an interesting point i did not notice before. So Chloe can recognize our time-traveling Max, you think? Does this mean that when Max travels through the photos, another Max takes her place in our timeline? That certainly is not true when Max experiences visions though as she seems to blackout, but then again that is possibly the future she sees, so no Max would exist there yet to exchange places.

Originally posted by CAPTAIN VI:

Hey, some quite remarkable and original observations you got there.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

However how can these realities be changed to the "better" outcome unless that Max also used rewind. So even if time is divergent creating new timelines with every choice, you can't make a choice you did not know existed.

You mean that it’s impossible to alter the reality any other way than by actually rewinding? And using knowledge already gathered in that particular reality when doing so?

Yes, even if Nathan gets arrested and then spoils the beans on Jefferson and all that, even if that all happens the same day (highly unlikely with Nathan probably lawyering up immediately), that doesn't mean Kate would not try suicide, or Max wouldn't need/want to use some of the prior gained knowledge (like about Taylors mom, or Dana's pregnancy), or especially to save Kate from even attempting the suicide.

I guess the chaos of arresting Nathan after he shot Chloe would be a huge spin on the daily life at Blackwell, some things are not really addressed by that.

And even IF they would, our Max STILL has that knowledge she gained while jumping around. She knows stuff she wouldn't have if she never had the rewind power at all. So everything already has changed, at least for our Max, no matter if we safe Chloe or not. Thats fun with time travel.

Originally posted by CAPTAIN VI:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

At some points later in the game Max also seems to indicate that she forgets what happens when she returns to the original timeline asking Chloe to fill her in. This may have dark implications as it seems she actually just hops through alternative dimensions, inhabiting the Max that actually lives there (or exchanging bodies)

Similar thing happened in Butterfly Effect, all those Evan's memories lost due to time traveling. But here it’s Present Max that has no memory of the surrounding world, not the Past Max, so I’m clueless here. Still, overriding parallel Max’s instances as described is disturbing on quite a few levels.

That is actually my working theory, that we are in fact not changing time (while traveling through the photos), but Max is just visiting alternate realities where that change had run its course. For me that is the only way to explain why Max does not know what actually changed.

However i am on the fence with the rewind. That may actually only affect our Max's own timeline, as she remembers everything, even keeps items, and can move about during the rewind. The latter two would indicate it would be impossible for the alternates to even exist... Thus the actual rewind power may function more as a precognition, in which we see possible futures, but not actually ACT in them. That would also tie into the visions a lot better, if only we could not rewind in them as well.

There are also three instances of the power we only see once each. The total time stop when you try to safe Kate is unique, as is the initial rewind from the bathroom to the class. And of course the traveling back in the "save Arcadia bay" end, which is the only one when Max is not present on the picture itself.

@Jeckenn,

i agree, but that is a splendid mind-screw. It is also dependent on how much of the ending actually happens, since you save Chloe again by spending time locked up with her, so you never get abducted, thus Victoria may also be safe. Nathan probably isn't, i am unclear on when Jefferson killed him exactly.

The real mind screw here is, considering my above theory about our Max just replacing other Maxes, the fact that Chloe had to catch her up on what happened may mean we are not in the original timeline anymore with the "save Chloe" ending. That is depressing to me. Then again, when Max passes out in her timeline and experiences the Nightmare, that may include all that.

Still wondering why Max can rewind in the Nightmare/Visions. How can you precog a precognition? And as others have said the Nightmare at the end seems to pretty much take the same time as you are playing through in real time...

For myself, i truly believe the "save Chloe" end is the correct one, as the other end is pointlessly cruel to all involved, not the least the player themselves. It completely destroys Max emotionally (consider what she experienced, she did not forget any of that) and does not solve many of the problems presented. It also means none of the other characters learn anything.
Only Max went through the Journey, and she was much worse off by it. Chloe's progress was deleted, the Prescotts can go on as they wish, nobody learned a lesson about Bullying, etc (although i wish there was a kiss and save Chloe ending for the TRUE ending ;)

And i want to reiterate, of course i know it is a Video Game and i know how these stories work. Dontnod here has crafted one of the best in my mind, and it has touched me emotionally like no other game/story before, which is probably why i am so invested in it.

Thanks for the nice conversation so far, looking forward to more thoughts!

[Shinzou]

Originally posted by Wessssss21:

I'm finding a lot of this to be the problem of trying to write a story and also impliment a video game. Like Jeckenn said from a gaming standpoint it's all about showing the player how rewind can be used, I doubt it connects to the story as written, but it also could. also there is a lot of Story points I think never got used. I would love a breakdown from the actual writers as to certain events as there's so much that never gets explained.
-I'm also onboard with the theory that Saving Chloe is not what triggers the storm as Max gets the vision of the storm before ever seeing Chloe, thus putting the Vision of the Storm as the Catalyst and not saving Chloe.
-But yea between the idea from a Game Developer persepective, to a Writer, and then working off of player feedback. Things got changed, added, removed, from the original story. Just would like to know what that original story was and the "rules" of the world

I agree, that would be interesting. In the Directors Commentary they mentioned that they took some liberties, to entrance the player, and that is fine, but i would also love to see the original story outline. I keep wondering if there is maybe a loop hole, like if Kate dies, it is okay that Chloe lives, as long as you find Rachel and bring her murderer to justice.

But the story they wanted to tell was not the mystery, but the one of friendship/love. And that is fine. It is a great story. But of course that makes me even more interested in a satisfying conclusion!

[WATCH·IT]

Originally posted by Shinzou:

And as others have said the Nightmare at the end seems to pretty much take the same time as you are playing through in real time...

A reality messed up that much it literally became what you can see in the nightmare? Denuded of all the logic and basic principles? Sure, the rewind grants you power. You may alter the course of events. Shape the world I guess if you're patient and clever enough to do so. But to create all this you can see in the Nightmare?

The Blackwell reversed sequence. All the individual scenes with Max being chased and so on. The Flashback Show on the way out of the nightmare. Two Whales conversation with... who exactly? Yeah, the game suggests it's the personification of all your guilt and fear you're talking to.

Could this be us, then? In one reality Max could cross all the boundaries she tried not to. Go too far. The Nightmare then would not be just a by-product of an unconscious mind carried towards the Lighthouse. It would be a real creation of a mind that remains in far worse state. Not a nightmare. Not anymore. A monument. Designed, raised and maintained with the vehemence and derangement of what we could (and did) eventually become if we didn't let it go when supposed to. A monument made to torment herself?

Because Max can not let it go. She may no longer remain in the world she knows, either. It would be a monument for the Rewind. A force that can - in her opinion - only destroy and tear things apart. Look, what it has done. Is this the only thing I am capable of? So be it.

Does the Nightmare result from this conflict, impossible for disordered Max to ever solve? A world reduced to this small pieces of time, thoroughly relieved over and over again, with no more future whatsoever.

If we want to stick to the idea that whatever happens during the blackouts is in fact visiting other existing realities that result from our actions...



Cool as it may sound, there is still a major problem to solve. Since we replace other Maxes, how could we talk to the one we see in the Nightmare then? And how the hell could rewinding cause the world to crash is another thing. But the idea got my imagination going, as usual.

[Wessssss21]

Funny enough a fan made story called "Ouroboro's" start's to go into the idea that the "Max's" are actually different people, and Chloe (both the Bay and Bae survive in this story) starts to question which Max is her Max

[CZBGR Icepick]

Originally posted by Shinzou:

At the end of Episode one, when you have that vision at the Lighthouse with Chloe, Max actually has to use her rewind power in the vision/nightmare at least once (with the falling tree and again with the Lighthouse itself, possible a third time with the logs, if you are not quick enough). If this is just a vision though and she is not actually there, WHY would she need to rewind to save herself. That leads me to believe she actually travelled to the future in that instant.

Premonition? The entire theme of the nightmare was to remind Max of the fact that the future was inevitable. In the first time she had the nightmare, there was no sign she had time powers. But after the day looped in itself like Groundhog Day, she has powers. So by introducing this new skill, she gets practice in the nightmare.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

On a related note, she also needs to use rewind a lot in the nightmare reality. So that would also mean that she actually is there? Or do her rewinds there represent that she is subconsciously saving Chloe somehow who is dragging her butt to the Lighthouse while she has that Nightmare.

You realize that by that time, Max was drugged, so this is the drug-induced nightmare. By slipping out of consciousness, she is in her subconscious.

Before BtS was released, there was a discussion about how Max may appear to be the bad guy for not contacting Chloe. On her part, she felt guilty to the point she wanted to make up for lost time. Even though she first was concerned about the strange girl in the bathroom, the storm was the entire reason she wanted to do things to avoid it.

However, in her subconscious, she wanted Chloe alive, and after seeing she was killed when she was powerless to stop it, that's what broke Max. With her powers being an extension of herself, she realizes she may be doing this all wrong. That is why at the end, she was presented with the choices of Chloe or not Chloe, as she has trouble accepting one thing over another.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Also, why would she even suggest going to the lighthouse as a safe place when clearly in all her visions so far the lighthouse itself is destroyed by that ship the tornado whips into it? She is however certain it is the only safe place...

Usually being drawn to a symbol, being at the place could present clues as to what may trigger it. There's also the snowglobe lighthouse, which evidently, I'm not sure she considered her answer lies there, but it didn't happen in game. It did, however, take her back at that time before she left Chloe, which is how BtS showed how meaningful that was.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Obviously noticed by others, going back and letting Chloe die does not fix anything, since the very act of going back is once again travlling trhough time to change it. Our Max still has experienced everything else and she still brings back knowledge she should not have, thus already breaking that timeline again, even if she never uses any of that knowledge. This is also the first and only time she uses a photo that does not feature her own image somehow. That seems significant somehow, but i can't put my finger on it.

If you're referring to the buftterfly photo, her image is there in the reflection off the bucket. That is how she was able to go back to that point in time.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

More of an observation. The clocks in the game. First time at the Price house, all digital clocks are reset to flash 0:00 (in Joyce room, as well as on the microwave oven). Ananlogue on wall works normally. I waited there 30 minutes and it advances 30 minutes (wonder what happens if you wait even longer? Does it eventually get night outside? Must test later...) This (and the below) are even interestingly played with when you notice later the wall clock has stopped and ponder if your time traveling caused that... only to find out a lady bug was stuck in the hands, and it resumes normal operation after freeing it.

However the day you get breakfast after the swim, the wall clock shows 5 past 2PM when you sit down at the table and advances only to 15 past when you eat/Joyce shows you the photo album. Breakfast at 2PM? And everybody acts like it is breakfast time, even when you then go to the Diner.

Are you sure you didn't misinterpret the digital clocks?

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Samuel's weird comment about letting a clock move forward. Obviously seemed like he knew something a lot more about what was going on. And also him talking about Rachel being both the Sunlight and the shadows. A doe being Max's spirit animal when it is clear that it is Rachel's spirit guiding her...

All those damn cute squirrels everywhere. Are squirrels connected to time in some way? Did not find anything.

I don't remember Samuel having a comment sbout clocks (I'll look it up), but I don't see how that can suggest he knows anything at all. For all we know, he's just a janitor and some weird but harmless conspiracy theorist.

Ms. Grant however, knows more about the legends of the area, more like a history teacher than a science teacher. In this case, that could just be simply her passion. On the other hand, subtly a Bailey School Kids trope of someone who may not be who they appear to be, yet everyone else is oblivious to the obvious phoney disguise.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Chloes graffiti "I can't sleep", which she wrote on her bedroom wall is also inside the entrance of the Blackwell Pool. Or was it maybe Rachel Amber who wrote that in both places? Chloe hasn't been back to school in years, she was certainly expelled before Rachel disappeared. Maybe a cry for help from Rachel. Similar to the "I want to Die" graffiti, which does not seem to be from Chloe either (in the club house/Junkyard).

BtS may cover this, bit I don't think that necessarily is significant. The school has a lot of graffiti with phallic humor. I'd take that with a grain of salt, simply the girl's writings on the wall.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

There are instances that make it seem that Max passes/phases out when she has a vision, and that she actually loses that time in the real world as she experiences the visions. Did she travel to an alternate timeline instead?

After you dream at night, do you not wake up to a sunshine in the morning?

Originally posted by Shinzou:

At some points later in the game Max also seems to indicate that she forgets what happens when she returns to the original timeline asking Chloe to fill her in. This may have dark implications as it seems she actually just hops through alternative dimensions, inhabiting the Max that actually lives there (or exchanging bodies). However how can these realities be changed to the "better" outcome unless that Max also used rewind. So even if time is divergent creating new timelines with every choice, you can't make a choice you did not know existed. And Max's power is all about learning new things and then using that to change stuff to a "better" future. This leads me to believe that IF everything that can happen did happen in some alternate timeline, then we just see our Max hopping through various timelines and choosing the ones she personally wants to happen. That however means the save Arcadia Bay ending is pointless as this is probabaly the most emotionally destructive for everybody, especially for Max and Chloe.

I think Max was asking so that she should be in the timeline she thinks she is in, because when she saved William, things were different.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

What is the significance of the Cairn that appears in front of the Dorms later on? Max even wonders "who put that there". It is the same as the one at the lighthouse, and there also Max wonders where it came from. This might indicate everything already has changed. You can't go back and fix it, but just choose your own path now.

No one knows. It was not there in the beginning, but it also appears at the lighthouse.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Also what is with the Blue Jay in the Price household. There must be more to it than just a photo OP. I mean neither Joyce nor David noticed that for three days?

There is more, but just off the top of my hat.

I've had a bird fly into my house with no other way but that it entered through a door. I don't find that strange, but it is also more difficult to remove them, that they are better off left alone. I'm sure they've noticed it, bit it's not worth the stress. Just live with it.

[Shinzou]

Originally posted by CAPTAIN VI:

Could this be us, then? In one reality Max could cross all the boundaries she tried not to. Go too far. The Nightmare then would not be just a by-product of an unconscious mind carried towards the Lighthouse. It would be a real creation of a mind that remains in far worse state. Not a nightmare. Not anymore. A monument. Designed, raised and maintained with the vehemence and derangement of what we could (and did) eventually become if we didn't let it go when supposed to. A monument made to torment herself?

A very intriguing thought. The very manifestation of her guilt given form. Max blaming herself for every bad thing that happens to her friends, and unable to act, wishing she could act, One... More... Chance...

Originally posted by CAPTAIN VI:

Because Max can not let it go. She may no longer remain in the world she knows, either. It would be a monument for the Rewind. A force that can - in her opinion - only destroy and tear things apart. Look, what it has done. Is this the only thing I am capable of? So be it.

Does the Nightmare result from this conflict, impossible for disordered Max to ever solve? A world reduced to this small pieces of time, thoroughly relieved over and over again, with no more future whatsoever.

This hit me playing through it again tonight. Max, our Max, loses time too. When she comes back from the alternate reality, it is ours after she went "into the photo" and she remembers nothing. How did she get to Chloes room? That seems to indicate she once again is just inhabiting some alternate timeline Max.

I was ready to announce an epiphany, i felt alternate Maxes can not use rewind, never had the vision, because in the diary of the alternate timeline, she clearly never had a vision, or else it would have been too important not to put down. That Max also seems to be much different personality wise than our Max.

But now i am not so sure anymore. If we came back not to our timeline, but yet another, then this one surely must have convinced Chloe she can rewind time too. Our Max seems to never pick up on these clues though, so that may contribute to her Nightmare later on...

Originally posted by CAPTAIN VI:

If we want to stick to the idea that whatever happens during the blackouts is in fact visiting other existing realities that result from our actions...

:LIS_poker_face:

Cool as it may sound, there is still a major problem to solve. Since we replace other Maxes, how could we talk to the one we see in the Nightmare then? And how the hell could rewinding cause the world to crash is another thing. But the idea got my imagination going, as usual.

I believe the Nightmare is a crossroads, a meeting point of realities. Our Max doesn't meet only made up constructs of her own guilt or belief, but she may actually meet failed timeline versions, echoes if you will. Timelines she caused to self-destruct by visiting them and meddling around. This in turn would mean that no matter what sacrifice she chooses, the other timelines still will be screwed. Max's subconsciously seems to know that, as several entries in her diary suggest.

Just on a side note, i noticed for the first time in my third play through, when you visit alternate Price house, there is a wheelchair ramp in front of the house. Nice foreshadowing. Then on my fourth playthrough tonight, i saw that this was even in the preview picture for the episode. Oh well ;)

[Shinzou]

First of, i hate Steams reply and quoting mechanism, so bare with me if it seems out of place.

Some great thoughts here Icepick.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

At the end of Episode one, when you have that vision at the Lighthouse with Chloe, Max actually has to use her rewind power in the vision/nightmare at least once (with the falling tree and again with the Lighthouse itself, possible a third time with the logs, if you are not quick enough). If this is just a vision though and she is not actually there, WHY would she need to rewind to save herself. That leads me to believe she actually travelled to the future in that instant.

Premonition? The entire theme of the nightmare was to remind Max of the fact that the future was inevitable. In the first time she had the nightmare, there was no sign she had time powers. But after the day looped in itself like Groundhog Day, she has powers. So by introducing this new skill, she gets practice in the nightmare.

She didn't need it in the first vision since there was no danger. However the lighthouse collapsed on top of her, and that snapped her out of the vision. Not a rewind still.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

On a related note, she also needs to use rewind a lot in the nightmare reality. So that would also mean that she actually is there? Or do her rewinds there represent that she is subconsciously saving Chloe somehow who is dragging her butt to the Lighthouse while she has that Nightmare.

You realize that by that time, Max was drugged, so this is the drug-induced nightmare. By slipping out of consciousness, she is in her subconscious.

Yes, of course i know that, but that is also kind of my point. Some version of our Max should NOT be drugged anymore at that point, since she escaped Jefferson. The Nightmare takes place well after that.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Before BtS was released, there was a discussion about how Max may appear to be the bad guy for not contacting Chloe. On her part, she felt guilty to the point she wanted to make up for lost time. Even though she first was concerned about the strange girl in the bathroom, the storm was the entire reason she wanted to do things to avoid it.

However, in her subconscious, she wanted Chloe alive, and after seeing she was killed when she was powerless to stop it, that's what broke Max. With her powers being an extension of herself, she realizes she may be doing this all wrong. That is why at the end, she was presented with the choices of Chloe or not Chloe, as she has trouble accepting one thing over another.

I disagree that the storm was the reason she wanted to do things. I think it was always Chloe. Later on there is some doubt and the storm becomes a concern. All through episode 1-4 Max in her diary and dialogue even doubts that the storm and her power are related. There are some hints about Chaos Theory and such, but Warren at the end is the only one to actually connect it. But even he says that it is not Max's fault, that maybe there is even more to it.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

...first and only time she uses a photo that does not feature her own image somehow. That seems significant somehow, but i can't put my finger on it.

If you're referring to the buftterfly photo, her image is there in the reflection off the bucket. That is how she was able to go back to that point in time.

Ohhh, i never noticed that. Interesting. Okay so scratch that one. Doesn't really affect my theory though, just found it peculiar. I mean, it is kind of strange that she can pretty much use any picture she is in anyway. Originally thought it was limited to ones she took or was in, but obviously not.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Are you sure you didn't misinterpret the digital clocks?

How so?

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Samuel's weird comment about letting a clock move forward. Obviously seemed like he knew something a lot more about what was going on. And also him talking about Rachel being both the Sunlight and the shadows. A doe being Max's spirit animal when it is clear that it is Rachel's spirit guiding her...

All those damn cute squirrels everywhere. Are squirrels connected to time in some way? Did not find anything.

I don't remember Samuel having a comment sbout clocks (I'll look it up), but I don't see how that can suggest he knows anything at all. For all we know, he's just a janitor and some weird but harmless conspiracy theorist.

You can talk to him about it, i think second day... when you ask him about what he thinks what happened to Rachel. He will mention that it is best to look forward, never back, like a clock, time moves forward. (paraphrasing). It is the same discussion when he talks about your and his spirit animals.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Ms. Grant however, knows more about the legends of the area, more like a history teacher than a science teacher. In this case, that could just be simply her passion. On the other hand, subtly a Bailey School Kids trope of someone who may not be who they appear to be, yet everyone else is oblivious to the obvious phoney disguise.

Still feel that the mentioning of native americans, the Tobanga, and spirit animals is more than incidental to the story. Ms Grant talks to Max about this quite a lot, i am sure that is not just there for flavor.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

There are instances that make it seem that Max passes/phases out when she has a vision, and that she actually loses that time in the real world as she experiences the visions. Did she travel to an alternate timeline instead?

After you dream at night, do you not wake up to a sunshine in the morning?

Not sure what you mean here. But i am now convinced she actually loses time. Max even comments that she looks older when looking in the mirror in the alternative timeline.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

At some points later in the game Max also seems to indicate that she forgets what happens when she returns to the original timeline asking Chloe to fill her in. This may have dark implications as it seems she actually just hops through alternative dimensions, inhabiting the Max that actually lives there (or exchanging bodies). However how can these realities be changed to the "better" outcome unless that Max also used rewind. So even if time is divergent creating new timelines with every choice, you can't make a choice you did not know existed. And Max's power is all about learning new things and then using that to change stuff to a "better" future. This leads me to believe that IF everything that can happen did happen in some alternate timeline, then we just see our Max hopping through various timelines and choosing the ones she personally wants to happen. That however means the save Arcadia Bay ending is pointless as this is probabaly the most emotionally destructive for everybody, especially for Max and Chloe.

I think Max was asking so that she should be in the timeline she thinks she is in, because when she saved William, things were different.

No, i think she is genuinely confused. She loses time when she comes back. Things happen and she does not remember them. She TELLS Chloe to fill her in, because she may not remember. That is because Max is aware that she passes out on occasion by then. People have told her she phases out. See SMS from Warren on not going to the drive in, Journal entries, conversations before the Vortex Club party.

But i wonder if there is another alternate Max that does things in that time when our Max is out there... I mean Chloe did not drag Max from her dorm to her house when we return from the alternate timeline for sure.

Great discussion folks... keep it up!

[CZBGR Icepick]

Originally posted by Shinzou:

She didn't need it in the first vision since there was no danger. However the lighthouse collapsed on top of her, and that snapped her out of the vision. Not a rewind still.

The point wasn't that it was a rewind mechanism of any sort. It plays a part in the story, because of Speed of Plot. Before Max realized Chloe had anything to do with it, she gets the nightmare first. This is tripping some people because of the part when it happens in the very beginning of the story, and no one has an answer as to why the devs did that, except it makes a good start to the story, giving us the plot device in itself.

That left the open-ended question of how and what means she gets her powers, since the devs avoided the straight answer.

By the time she does see Chloe appear, somehow this converged in the point when she gets her powers, accidentally rewinding, all the way to the beginning, yet right after the nightmare occurred in the story. The reoccurrence of the nightmare in several points in each chapter was Max's premenition of the storm. The fact that strange phenomena besides her powers were evidence supporting the science that builds up this storm, backs up this premonition. In itself, this is why at the end, Max feels responsible because of what she has done up to that point, by saying she caused the storm. Never mind the fact she had an actual premonition before the time travel ability transpired.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Yes, of course i know that, but that is also kind of my point. Some version of our Max should NOT be drugged anymore at that point, since she escaped Jefferson. The Nightmare takes place well after that.

The nightmare occurred because of her drugged state. Not the point that she was dragged to the dark room, but that she was still under the influence and could be injected again which was apparently a concoction not intended to keep her conscious. Hence, she slips into her subconscious as an escape since she was trapped and tied up.

Because of it, it allowed her to reconsider the situation she was in and her predicament. That's how she then realizes how Chloe plays a part of this because this scene converges the two realities of Chloe based on what she did, and the consequences it became of it. She was reflecting on the things she did, what she felt was wrong, and it echoed that. That's why, regardless of what you did to Kate, Kate does get mad at you for the interference. That's how Max felt threatened by Mr. Jefferson, that she (or rather, you) had to avoid him, and the trouble along with it.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

I disagree that the storm was the reason she wanted to do things. I think it was always Chloe. Later on there is some doubt and the storm becomes a concern. All through episode 1-4 Max in her diary and dialogue even doubts that the storm and her power are related. There are some hints about Chaos Theory and such, but Warren at the end is the only one to actually connect it. But even he says that it is not Max's fault, that maybe there is even more to it.

That wasn't her initial goal, yes, but it was apparent at the end of Episode 5.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Are you sure you didn't misinterpret the digital clocks?

How so?

Forgive me for the long explanation.

The 00:00 flashing on the clocks could clearly mean that at some point the power was tripped on that side of the house. My house gets this problem as well.

It also means that even though the device has power, the time or the alarm is never set.

Interestingly, there are some discrepancies.

Episode 1: The microwave flashes, but it doesn't appear plugged in, yet it should be. But by the second time you are in Chloe's house after the swim, the microwave and other appliances are plugged in, but there seems to be no power or clock on the microwave. Either it doesn't actually have power, or it does and doesn't show the clock. But because that outlet was not filled from the first time the kitchen is visited, I would have suspected it's more to do with a power loss earlier. If the microwave had power then, then it was plugged in somewhere else.

Episode 4 during the alternative Chloe part, the microwave is there, things are plugged in, and it still flashes, instead of earlier with everything else plugged in and the microwave not seeming to work. Upstairs, the parents' room clock also flashes accordingly. I see no significance to this except that somehow they don't rely on those clocks.

However, when you've restored the timeline, the microwave seems dead again, everything plugged in, and the texts Max gets come from an earlier time than when Max is in the house compared to the wall clock.

I don't know how you claim the time was 5 minutes past 2 PM, since the wall clock doesn't show a PM, and there were no digital clocks except for the time stamps on her phone. So far, while I'm in Collector's mode, the time stamps closely match the clock, and each time I saw the clock, they seem to be the approprite time. PM when it's dark, AM when it's day time. But there was never a 2 AM or 2 PM for that matter on my playthrough.

When Max wakes up in the morning after the swim, Warren texts her at 8:14AM, but after she is dressed and leaves Chloe's room, Max texts Kate back at 8:07AM. However, when I am downstairs, The clock shows that Max is downstairs after the text from Warren, so I don't know how you have a different time by Episode 3, since the time stamps on her texts seem to match.

Every time after that, I've been following the time stamps based on the texts. Max gets a text from her dad when they were trying to break into Frank's RV, and that was before noon. In fact, the next couple scenes show Max show up back to Blackwell by noon. Also, the diner itself is open 24 hours a day. As for Chloe's house, all I can remember is one night scene which was in the alt time line. Everything else occurred before noon.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

You can talk to him about it, i think second day... when you ask him about what he thinks what happened to Rachel. He will mention that it is best to look forward, never back, like a clock, time moves forward. (paraphrasing). It is the same discussion when he talks about your and his spirit animals.

Yes, I just looked up the script. But he was very vague about it. Chloe herself also mentions a broken clock is also right twice a day, so I don't see how that carries much significance.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Still feel that the mentioning of native americans, the Tobanga, and spirit animals is more than incidental to the story. Ms Grant talks to Max about this quite a lot, i am sure that is not just there for flavor.

It is, but for the story, the connection wasn't explained, if there is or isn't one. It may just be a coincidence based on old legends, nothing more.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Not sure what you mean here. But i am now convinced she actually loses time. Max even comments that she looks older when looking in the mirror in the alternative timeline.

When she's passed out in the junkyard, Chloe is there the whole time with her, so, Chloe would likely be able to notice. She obviously lost time, because she passed out the enitre time. Her lighthouse nightmares don't shift her out of reality itself, since she isn't there to change time. The nightmares just hint at clues, to further her premonition.

Originally posted by Shinzou:

No, i think she is genuinely confused. She loses time when she comes back. Things happen and she does not remember them. She TELLS Chloe to fill her in, because she may not remember. That is because Max is aware that she passes out on occasion by then. People have told her she phases out. See SMS from Warren on not going to the drive in, Journal entries, conversations before the Vortex Club party.

But i wonder if there is another alternate Max that does things in that time when our Max is out there... I mean Chloe did not drag Max from her dorm to her house when we return from the alternate timeline for sure.

Great discussion folks... keep it up!

That was the whole point in her asking. She changes reality like she did when she went through alternative Chloe. She would do so by also tearing up more selfie photos at different points in time. She would have wanted to make sure that the reality she knew was still the same reality as intended. If she changed something, it may have depended on what effect it changed.

[WATCH·IT]

@CZBGR Icepick, @Shinzou
You two should totally help with the sequel’s script as long as it includes any messing with time…

Originally posted by Shinzou:

But i wonder if there is another alternate Max that does things in that time when our Max is out there... I mean Chloe did not drag Max from her dorm to her house when we return from the alternate timeline for sure.

So that would mean there are alternate Maxes. Plus, when you enter another timeline, you override Max from that timeline (= takeover her body) and the overridden Max replaces the original Max. Why is there only one Max who can do that?

The Max you override lives a happy life attending Blackwell – I can assume that by her hanging around with the Vortex. Or maybe she is so depressed with Chloe on a wheelchair that she reacts with a retreat (like she does after William’s death). Now do those alternative Maxes rewind time? If they do not then the overridden Max is being tossed into our original reality as a replacement – now there’s no wheelchair anymore, moreover you and Chloe are friends again and are currently trying to get the psychopath busted, no biggie.

And she has NO clue what the hell just happened because – unlike us – she has no idea of rewinding. And yet - seeing all that - the overridden Max does nothing that would make Chloe suspicious about the instant shift in her personality/behavior? Like scream WHAT THE and jump out of the window or something?

Yeah, if you want to add even more drama we could go for the concept of the overridden Max being so bewildered to see Chloe not bound to a wheelchair that she would not say a word simply to not break this, whatever it is. Never tell Chloe anything, simply cherish the moment, only to be sent back to Chloe-on-the-wheelchair reality again. But I think we would go too far into this.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Interestingly, there are some discrepancies.

Achievement unlocked:

Madsen. David Madsen.
“I see everything”.

:D

[CZBGR Icepick]

As long as they have Bree Sharp in the room, I might have some inspiration to produce the references.

[Shinzou]

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

She didn't need it in the first vision since there was no danger. However the lighthouse collapsed on top of her, and that snapped her out of the vision. Not a rewind still.

The point wasn't that it was a rewind mechanism of any sort. It plays a part in the story, because of Speed of Plot. Before Max realized Chloe had anything to do with it, she gets the nightmare first. This is tripping some people because of the part when it happens in the very beginning of the story, and no one has an answer as to why the devs did that, except it makes a good start to the story, giving us the plot device in itself.

That left the open-ended question of how and what means she gets her powers, since the devs avoided the straight answer.

I said above that i realize that meta-gaming explains these, but i want to explore what happens from an in-game perspective. How does it all make sense in canon universe...? Explore the story as we are presented it. While i hate the term, but consider "death of the author" here for a minute.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

By the time she does see Chloe appear, somehow this converged in the point when she gets her powers, accidentally rewinding, all the way to the beginning, yet right after the nightmare occurred in the story. The reoccurrence of the nightmare in several points in each chapter was Max's premenition of the storm. The fact that strange phenomena besides her powers were evidence supporting the science that builds up this storm, backs up this premonition. In itself, this is why at the end, Max feels responsible because of what she has done up to that point, by saying she caused the storm. Never mind the fact she had an actual premonition before the time travel ability transpired.

But all evidence that supports Max saving Chloe being the cause of the storm comes POST saving her, from unreliable sources. There are just as many sources saying that she is not to blame, that the storm was just revenge (of Rachel or a culmination of all the other victims), or even unavoidable.

There is something new i noticed tonight. The "wrong" timelines seem to be presented within the photo boundaries. However saving Chloe is not. Neither are several scenes leading up to that decision. Fair counterpoint, some are though, i realize that (when you speak with her before the Vortex Party) BUT that scene also is one where our Max does admit she may not remember what happened. It really stood out to me when Max is captured by Jefferson. Some scenes have that boundary, some do not.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Yes, of course i know that, but that is also kind of my point. Some version of our Max should NOT be drugged anymore at that point, since she escaped Jefferson. The Nightmare takes place well after that.

The nightmare occurred because of her drugged state. Not the point that she was dragged to the dark room, but that she was still under the influence and could be injected again which was apparently a concoction not intended to keep her conscious. Hence, she slips into her subconscious as an escape since she was trapped and tied up.

Because of it, it allowed her to reconsider the situation she was in and her predicament. That's how she then realizes how Chloe plays a part of this because this scene converges the two realities of Chloe based on what she did, and the consequences it became of it. She was reflecting on the things she did, what she felt was wrong, and it echoed that. That's why, regardless of what you did to Kate, Kate does get mad at you for the interference. That's how Max felt threatened by Mr. Jefferson, that she (or rather, you) had to avoid him, and the trouble along with it.

I disagree. The nightmare occurred after you was saved by David. Max safely drove a car through a hurricane. She was not drugged anymore when she talked to Warren.

Unless we talk about different causes for the Nightmare. But when Max collapsed at the Beach with Chloe, she was under no drugs for sure, considering in this reality she was never captured by Jefferson, and that is a reality with no photo boundaries, so even with the memory lapse, i feel this is our Max's reality.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

How so?

Forgive me for the long explanation.

The 00:00 flashing on the clocks could clearly mean that at some point the power was tripped on that side of the house. My house gets this problem as well.

It also means that even though the device has power, the time or the alarm is never set.

Interestingly, there are some discrepancies.

Episode 1: The microwave flashes, but it doesn't appear plugged in, yet it should be. But by the second time you are in Chloe's house after the swim, the microwave and other appliances are plugged in, but there seems to be no power or clock on the microwave. Either it doesn't actually have power, or it does and doesn't show the clock. But because that outlet was not filled from the first time the kitchen is visited, I would have suspected it's more to do with a power loss earlier. If the microwave had power then, then it was plugged in somewhere else.

Episode 4 during the alternative Chloe part, the microwave is there, things are plugged in, and it still flashes, instead of earlier with everything else plugged in and the microwave not seeming to work. Upstairs, the parents' room clock also flashes accordingly. I see no significance to this except that somehow they don't rely on those clocks.

However, when you've restored the timeline, the microwave seems dead again, everything plugged in, and the texts Max gets come from an earlier time than when Max is in the house compared to the wall clock.

I don't know how you claim the time was 5 minutes past 2 PM, since the wall clock doesn't show a PM, and there were no digital clocks except for the time stamps on her phone. So far, while I'm in Collector's mode, the time stamps closely match the clock, and each time I saw the clock, they seem to be the approprite time. PM when it's dark, AM when it's day time. But there was never a 2 AM or 2 PM for that matter on my playthrough.

interjection, it is actually 5 past 12 pm. It is day outside, i was thrown off the first time by the fact that the 1 is missing at 12 o clock. PM is afternoon. AM is until 11:59. Still has the same significance i think.

As for the digital clocks, i DO think it is important. And your explanation makes sense, but i feel there is not mistake here. It means something that Dontnod had the analogue clock going and the digitals be blacked out or flash 0:00.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

When Max wakes up in the morning after the swim, Warren texts her at 8:14AM, but after she is dressed and leaves Chloe's room, Max texts Kate back at 8:07AM. However, when I am downstairs, The clock shows that Max is downstairs after the text from Warren, so I don't know how you have a different time by Episode 3, since the time stamps on her texts seem to match.

Every time after that, I've been following the time stamps based on the texts. Max gets a text from her dad when they were trying to break into Frank's RV, and that was before noon. In fact, the next couple scenes show Max show up back to Blackwell by noon. Also, the diner itself is open 24 hours a day. As for Chloe's house, all I can remember is one night scene which was in the alt time line. Everything else occurred before noon.

Yes, the timestamps for the SMS confuse me too. But, they also happen when you rewind immediately after getting one, as in you do not lose the SMS. May be a game engine issue. I am pretty sure the clock is not a mistake as our attention is drawn to it several times, especially with the lady bug issue.

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

You can talk to him about it, i think second day... when you ask him about what he thinks what happened to Rachel. He will mention that it is best to look forward, never back, like a clock, time moves forward. (paraphrasing). It is the same discussion when he talks about your and his spirit animals.

Yes, I just looked up the script. But he was very vague about it. Chloe herself also mentions a broken clock is also right twice a day, so I don't see how that carries much significance.

Of course he was vague, lol. If he was spilling the beans, what fun would it be to dicuss?

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Still feel that the mentioning of native americans, the Tobanga, and spirit animals is more than incidental to the story. Ms Grant talks to Max about this quite a lot, i am sure that is not just there for flavor.

It is, but for the story, the connection wasn't explained, if there is or isn't one. It may just be a coincidence based on old legends, nothing more.

Does it have to be explained? It is a venue to explore for in game canon/lore. Why put it even in there if it was not at least meant for us to ponder over as a red herring. I think it may have been put there as an alternate explanation attempt...

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

Not sure what you mean here. But i am now convinced she actually loses time. Max even comments that she looks older when looking in the mirror in the alternative timeline.

When she's passed out in the junkyard, Chloe is there the whole time with her, so, Chloe would likely be able to notice. She obviously lost time, because she passed out the enitre time. Her lighthouse nightmares don't shift her out of reality itself, since she isn't there to change time. The nightmares just hint at clues, to further her premonition.

But Max DOES change time during that time. Or at least uses rewind a few times.

But lets start again the final sequence starts at the Beach, not the Junkyard. It is the way from the Beach to the Lighthouse. Max uses her power a lot to get through the labyrinth. I think that may be to save Chloe from the pitfalls in Max's initial second vision (the boulder, the logs, the lighthouse falling).

My issue with that is... Max does not know how she got to the beach, so does that mean she is in another alternate? No photo border would go against this...

Originally posted by CZBGR Icepick:

Originally posted by Shinzou:

No, i think she is genuinely confused. She loses time when she comes back. Things happen and she does not remember them. She TELLS Chloe to fill her in, because she may not remember. That is because Max is aware that she passes out on occasion by then. People have told her she phases out. See SMS from Warren on not going to the drive in, Journal entries, conversations before the Vortex Club party.

But i wonder if there is another alternate Max that does things in that time when our Max is out there... I mean Chloe did not drag Max from her dorm to her house when we return from the alternate timeline for sure.

Great discussion folks... keep it up!

That was the whole point in her asking. She changes reality like she did when she went through alternative Chloe. She would do so by also tearing up more selfie photos at different points in time. She would have wanted to make sure that the reality she knew was still the same reality as intended. If she changed something, it may have depended on what effect it changed.

Exactly. Photo Borders show us the "horror" ending alternatives by then. This one does not have the photo border... BUT Max still is unsure.

I love that writing. Not a plothole. It actually works in my eyes. Proving that this is the one true reality.