'Rad 8-Bit Graphics!'

[Jimmy Rustler]

I've got this on my wishlist for when it goes on sale, but I'd really love to see tryhard indie devs stop using this '8-bit' and 'retro' terminology. I really love 2D graphics; in fact I hated 3D almost entirely until about a decade ago. But this and similar 'retro' games are FAR beyond anything that would have worked on the NES or fit on a rom cartridge of the time, both in terms of color pallette and size.

I have to admit to being a little bit annoyed when I read the above tagline and then parallax scrolling happens literally five seconds into the trailer. I don't want to be autistic about this, but it needs to stop. '2D' or 'sprite' will be a more than sufficient adjective to put in front of 'graphics'.

[Ghin]

No, they aren't.

Originally posted by malthusite:

Originally posted by Lord Skreezer:

Sorry OP but you are minsinformed.

You can have parallax scrolling in 8-Bit games.

In fact my Amstrad CPC 6128 already did it, even tho it had just 128k memory.

8-Bit doesn't mean it can't have parallax, or that it's limited to the NES hardware. The NES wasn't the only 8-Bit system, and others 8-Bit systems could do incredible things...the Sega Master System could do parallax, for example.

I never said anything like that. Bits don't have anything inherently to do with graphics. But the developers are taglining it as something that could have run on the NES. I find that annoying.

The game is fine btw, I now own it. The manipulative retro garbage still annoys me.

[zehelvion]

Hello Malthusite,

Here is a video of a demo running on C64 (8bit):
FarLight's demo

Originally posted by malthusite:

But this and similar 'retro' games are FAR beyond anything that would have worked on the NES or fit on a rom cartridge of the time, both in terms of color pallette and size.

Here is a video composed of 8bit NES games with parallax scrolling:
Parallax scrolling

Here is a set of links to true 8-bit games from the era that are similar in graphical style imho to this game:
Golden Axe 8-bit (running on SMS)
Video of "Lord of the Sword"
Video of "Alterd Beast" port to SMS
WolfChild
In short, I don't see any striking differences in graphics that are glaring and disturbing. The main difference is that the graphics on the actual SMS 8-bit console, are brighter and more colorful while the graphics in this game are dreary and dimmer.

Also, graphics and any claims about graphics lay no claims to actual hardware constraints in other areas you mentioned (storage). It is hard if not impossible to see what is bothering you.

[Jimmy Rustler]

None of those games have anything like the horribly limited color palette of this game. They were doing the best they could with what was available to them. This is very poorly trying to ape that rather than also doing the best they can with the toolset they have. Even their other game, Oniken, is much more acceptable at doing sprite graphics as pleasingly as possible with a limited toolset.

This, at the base of it, is the problem. And I like the game fine, the 'retro grafx' garbage is just getting old. Either commit to making something absolutely in the style of an older game or make a game that looks as good as it can with what you have available. Stop aping something for nostalgia.

[zehelvion]

Originally posted by malthusite:

None of those games have anything like the horribly limited color palette of this game. They were doing the best they could with what was available to them. This is very poorly trying to ape that rather than also doing the best they can with the toolset they have. Even their other game, Oniken, is much more acceptable at doing sprite graphics as pleasingly as possible with a limited toolset.

This, at the base of it, is the problem. And I like the game fine, the 'retro grafx' garbage is just getting old. Either commit to making something absolutely in the style of an older game or make a game that looks as good as it can with what you have available. Stop aping something for nostalgia.

So to sum up your complaint: they fail to accurately reproduce the flavor of that era and also, at the same time hampered their efforts by severely limiting the number of colors and the game's resolution to boot?

It is clear (to me) that you are right about this being an inaccurate attempt to mimic 8-bit graphics. It also obviously doesn't fully utilize modern 2d capabilities.
I think the issue is that you are unaware of the power of nostalgia. People use this game and many other games as a form of escapism. Seeing something that even vaguely reminds people of an old game is refreshing and a lot of people who grew up in the 80's and 90's will be attracted by that notion. Also, from a budget perspective, making these limited animations is probably cheaper than making full blown, smooth and sprite colorful animations (that you see in modern fighting games orin Symphony of the Night). So all and all, if you way the pros and cons, for the devs and customers, it's clearly a win-win situation. I agree that is hypocritical to a certain degree but also pragmatic.

[Jimmy Rustler]

Originally posted by zehelvion:

Originally posted by malthusite:

None of those games have anything like the horribly limited color palette of this game. They were doing the best they could with what was available to them. This is very poorly trying to ape that rather than also doing the best they can with the toolset they have. Even their other game, Oniken, is much more acceptable at doing sprite graphics as pleasingly as possible with a limited toolset.

This, at the base of it, is the problem. And I like the game fine, the 'retro grafx' garbage is just getting old. Either commit to making something absolutely in the style of an older game or make a game that looks as good as it can with what you have available. Stop aping something for nostalgia.

So to sum up your complaint: they fail to accurately reproduce the flavor of that era and also, at the same time hampered their efforts by severely limiting the number of colors and the game's resolution to boot?

It is clear (to me) that you are right about this being an inaccurate attempt to mimic 8-bit graphics. It also obviously doesn't fully utilize modern 2d capabilities.
I think the issue is that you are unaware of the power of nostalgia. People use this game and many other games as a form of escapism. Seeing something that even vaguely reminds people of an old game is refreshing and a lot of people who grew up in the 80's and 90's will be attracted by that notion. Also, from a budget perspective, making these limited animations is probably cheaper than making full blown, smooth and sprite colorful animations (that you see in modern fighting games orin Symphony of the Night). So all and all, if you way the pros and cons, for the devs and customers, it's clearly a win-win situation. I agree that is hypocritical to a certain degree but also pragmatic.

I didn't say appealing to nostalgia was a bad idea, just that it frustrates me because of how poorly and shoddily it's done. Also more animation just means more frames, which mostly requires more work which I supposed does ultimately translate to more money. It seems like people should care enough, though.

Frames of animation and color ranges do indeed coorelate with data used, however. I think the largest game ever on the NES/Famicom was like 6mb. Odallus is over 400. There's a point where it stops being smart, opportunistic marketing and verges on cynicism and dishonesty.

[zehelvion]

Originally posted by malthusite:

I didn't say appealing to nostalgia was a bad idea, just that it frustrates me because of how poorly and shoddily it's done.

It was done well enough to attract mostly positive review in the Steam shop and beyond this semi-objective measure, it falls down to subjective taste (different strokes for different folks). I'm pretty impressed with the graphic style of this game but I'm known to like the use of few colors; it is a common phenomena in pixel art communities such as Pixel Joint where it is praised as a merit.
The drawing style, coupled with the small number of colors gives a very nice late 80's Heavy Metal feel to the game. It might have looked too cartoony if they decided to use more colors. There is something very primal about only seeing three or four colors for most characters.

Originally posted by malthusite:

Also more animation just means more frames, which mostly requires more work which I supposed does ultimately translate to more money. It seems like people should care enough, though.

We don't know how this would affect the budget. Assuming the budget was set and they only had ~x many pixel artist hours to make the game, should they have made less bosses and characters to invest more time in smooth animation? I don't think that would have made the game much better. It is hard to say cause we don't have two games to go by. It is their game, they risked the investment so they get to call the shots.

Originally posted by malthusite:

Frames of animation and color ranges do indeed coorelate with data used, however. I think the largest game ever on the NES/Famicom was like 6mb. Odallus is over 400.

I don't follow why the game size on the disk matters. Obviously they have the freedom to put any animations they make on our humongous disks. The main reason games today are so big is Wirth's Law.

Originally posted by malthusite:

There's a point where it stops being smart, opportunistic marketing and verges on cynicism and dishonesty.

I am pretty sure they made the game the way it is because of the opposite reasons. They wanted to be honest with themselves and us as an audience. The first thing you think when you see a game with so few colors is "this is going to be a challenging platformer with old game mechanics". Indeed it is somewhat challenging and does use oldskul motifs.

I understand what you mean though about it being a poor imitation of 8-bit game graphics. It does fail as a clone of what a metroidvania game would have looked like in that era (we have Lord of the Sword for that). It does work as a reinterpretation of the graphics back then. That is perhaps better than cloning the palettes and sprite size constraints of that era which I'm sure this crew is capable of doing if they so desired.

[freshdeus]

I will never understand these purists with their "wouldn´t run on an original machine"...not everybody is technical wizard and for advertisment is just easier to say: "8 bit graphics" than: Yeah, it uses the NES colour palette, but nope wouldn´t run on a NES...why we mentioned it...yeah just to warn you that this game wouldnt run on a NES, just in case you only play these type of games...

And what has the price to do with artistic choice? Why should a game, that uses sprites cost less than a game with HD graphics...making both take time and skill...despite the, ah yes...the gameplay and the experience the game delivers, but thats not what you are willing to pay for by purchasing a game.

It´s rather annoying that everything that uses 16x16 or whatever sprites has to be identified as retro. Nobody would say that your shirt is retro, because its made of cotton..just like the shirts in the 80s...

sorry...went a little offtopic here...

[Mr. Oibyr]

Originally posted by freshdeus:

Why should a game, that uses sprites cost less than a game with HD graphics

Seriously? You don't actually think one is just as hard as the other to make, do you?

If "Burger time" came out today and was anything more than $2, I would boycott it profusely

[freshdeus]

Originally posted by Freshright Fan:

Originally posted by freshdeus:

Why should a game, that uses sprites cost less than a game with HD graphics

Seriously? You don't actually think one is just as hard as the other to make, do you?

Sure, as long as we talking about 2D games...A good painter isn´t always a good illustrator and vice versa...each tool/craft has it´s own rules and can´t be compared in quality/time...One maybe could draw a fantastic hero in Illustrator very fast, but needs much more time making a fitting sprite than somebody who is used to it making these...how will you compare two different crafts?

But the whole discussion is drifiting towards the bottomless "Graphics VS. Gameplay" abyss, so there is no point focusing on it anymore.

[Mr. Oibyr]

Originally posted by freshdeus:

But the whole discussion is drifiting towards the bottomless "Graphics VS. Gameplay" abyss, so there is no point focusing on it anymore.

Fair enough. I'm definitely a gameplay fan. IMHO, if you came out with the first Castlevania(in it's original graphic quality) and SOTN at the same time, there would(or at least "should") be a drastic difference in price.

This game has the same price as Valdis Story and Guacamelee.

[Windalgo]

You might be interested in reading this:
http://joymasher.com/2015/07/06/odallus-and-nes-graphics-love-letter/

Odallus, like Shovel Knight and Megaman 9, subjected itself to a lot of the limitations of the 8 and 16 bit eras, while disregarding a few they didn't feel were necessary to capture the feel they wanted.
That article details which limitations they held themselves to and explains why they ignored the ones they did.

[Mr. Oibyr]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/369070
$12.99.
Looks just as good or better, $5 less and better graphics...

I will buy both games. I'll pay more for Slain...and I prefer techno or classical over metal!
(big Deftones fan though)

[sere]

in the end, i think op was just taking things too seriously.

Originally posted by Freshright Fan:

If the game was made with a nostalgic graphics feel, why does it have a price high enough for games like Guacamelee or Valdis Story? It couldn't have been as difficult to make. I could see this price being okay if there were 40+ hours of gameplay, but not 4+. I'm waiting until it's 90% off or >.

lots of reasons, not limited to your assumptions about what's easy to make or not. "HD graphics" are in many cases easier to produce than "rad 8-bit graphics". When designing and animating within the confines of a pixel count or limited resolution, achieving your goals within those constraints takes more calculation and work than it does to simply use the vast resources of a modern machine and 1080p monitor to capture stroke for stroke "HD" production. It's never a cut and dry thing and saying either style is easy is retarded. I would spend less time drawing the details i need for a game that can handle it 1-1 than I would trying to achieve something similar that must be abstracted or transformed to fit within a limiting framework. that would be just me, though.. and i would be charging for the work i am doing, not charging for what you think should be easy or hard for me when you don't know.

15 dollars in my store region is fair pricing whether you deem it high end for odallus or low end for valdis story. i have all 3 games and guacamelee should be the worst offender on your list for being revamped more than 3 times for the same entry while enjoying a market of more than 1 platform for each "revamp" reselling the same work.

finally, you bring pricing as an issue but didn't take into account the kickstarter behind these games. that changes the discussion quite a bit when you weigh to scale the funding of production AND the charging for completed work to make money.

[Mr. Oibyr]

I don't care how hard it was to make. I don't care if you have only 1 finger, you built the game in reverse and it took you eight years to make "Pong"! With all the games we have today available, if you priced it at the same value...don't expect a lot of sales. If there are a lot of sales; there are a lot more stupid and/or rich people on steam than I original guessed. I'm poor, I do my best to save money. Being stingy has made me a better sceptic.

I didn't even like Guacamelee that much...but they got our money(I got it 75% off, like the vast majority of my games). I can respect lucrative business decisions, even ones I wouldn't personally be okay with myself. I don't care what the devs charge. That's their decision. I just think that this is a shifty scenario whether it was intentional or not.

"rad 8-bit graphics" + "4+ hours of gameplay" + "$18" = "somethings not right here.........I'll wait 'til it's almost free."

[Witch in the Huluppu Tree]

Who gives a ♥♥♥♥?