Most of the challenges aren't fun

[Spagant Floundry]

To preface: I'm no stranger to challenges in roguelikes. I've gotten Dead God in The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth, for example. In The Binding of Isaac, and other games that strive to be like it, challenges typically provide you with a unique scenario that grants both positive and negative modifiers, forcing you to play the game in a way you normally wouldn't get the chance to. Isaac also has challenges in the form of difficult characters, such as Tainted Lost, which also follow this design principle, without explicitly calling them "challenges."

The majority of the challenges in Nubby serve only to increase the barrier for how much luck you need to win. I wouldn't take as much issue with the challenges being extremely difficult and unforgiving if they were optional to experiencing the full game. But given the challenges are the only way to unlock the alternate supervisors, they are a large barrier to entry. If nothing else changes, I think the alternative characters should instead be unlocked by achieving specific things in the classic game mode, and the challenges could unlock something cosmetic like skins for Nubby, or particle trails for Nubby. It feels backwards that a difficult challenge would unlock a comparatively less-difficult alternate way of playing.

I'm curious: how many challenges have most people beaten? I've only beaten "Short on Change" and "Plain Jane", and I beat them both on my first try. Those are the only two challenges I don't find either extremely limiting or extremely punishing. I've gotten close to winning on "Pheebie-Mode", but it doesn't feel any less like bashing my head into a wall to paint the Mona Lisa on my face using only bruises. My guess is that most players will never see what the alternative characters have to offer. I could be wrong, but looking at the number of hours most steam reviewers have played, I would be surprised if this were not true.

The biggest reason a lot of the challenges don't really work is because you are punished for doing well in this game. You can get ahead for a bit, but the game quickly catches back up to you, because each reroll also increases the required score. Essentially, that means you need to not only get lucky at the start, but lucky throughout the entire 80 rounds of the run. The only way to combat that is to get a broken synergy that will scale with the size of the numbers, which is a tough ask with the restrictions the challenges give you. If you ever have your one good synergy taken away, like with "Expiration Date" or "Nubbelocke", you'll never catch back up. One possible solution could be to focus some of the challenges around beating a certain score, rather than beating the 80th round.

The most obviously luck-based challenge is "Amnesiac", which takes away almost all player choice, leaving you just to wait endlessly until the game hands you something good. I've thrown myself at this challenge at least 20 times, and no dice. I rarely get any synergies, and when I do, I can't upgrade them for them to last.

Another issue is that some challenges require you to be extremely consistent to avoid a large punishment, but that also comes down to just getting lucky throughout the entire run. If you ever run into one round where the high numbers are buried or you randomly get a special round that completely counters your build, such as Holiday Cheer or Pessimism, your run is dead in its tracks for "Stay There!", "One-Shot McGee", "Nubbelock", and "Times Up!" I've tried building runs around just surviving every round without outpacing myself by spiking ahead of the curve, such as force triggering flamethrower or uranium rod with the void perk, but they can't keep up with the ramping difficulty, losing in the 60s - it seems necessary to also have some way of scaling with the numbers, which as far as I can tell, can only be done with items that double the numbers. However, doubling is risky, because if you double the same number too many times, you can get way too many rerolls, and if you can't sustain that every round, you'll lose as soon as you spike ahead and then can't catch back up. Maybe the tree item can counter that, but such a specific build is too much to ask in such a limiting and punishing set of circumstances.

Along with getting a good build for these challenges, there is also a large punishment for not aiming Nubby well. I'm not sure how good you can possibly get at aiming Nubby to get an optimal shot, or how long it would take to develop that skill to its ceiling. The bounces are very chaotic, as aiming only a pixel different can dramatically change the trajectory. This makes trying to improve feel like a waste of time, as the best you can do is develop a completely inexplicable intuition while you lose repeatedly.

I'd appreciate if this thread would not devolve into "skill issue". If I'm missing some obvious and consistent strategies in the challenges I've mentioned, I'd like to know. A lot of these criticisms can also apply to Balatro, so I could be in the minority for not enjoying this degree of luck-based difficulty.

[Tim]

I beat the one without rerolls and Plane Jane. Plane Jane was kinda fun. The one without rerolls felt pretty grindy. I'm surprised "Amnesiac" is the first challenge listed since it's so brutal.

And yeah, the missions I've sampled so far aren't that fun. A lotta them make you death spiral or force you to roll into one or two builds that are compatible with the challenge.

[Mellow]

Encountered this also, 5 hours on the game so far and have won every classic run I attempted first try. The challenges on the other hand seem quite brutal and a long term type of grind. Kind of disappointing given how alternative characters are expected to be in roguelites.

So far I have beaten 'Stay There!' and 'Short on Change' both on my first try which unlocked Tony Jr, and Goblony respectively.

Tony Jr:
*Start the game with 15 coins.
*You will enter Nubby-Mart when the game starts.
*Rare and ultra rare items are twice as likely to appear in shops

Goblony:
*You receive +3 coins per restock instead of 1.
*Maximum coin limit is raised to 200.
*You lose two lives when you launch Nubby

If you have the other characters unlocked please comment their stats, I would like to see which ones are worth grinding first.

So far it seems that the challenges are brutally hard, and the unlocked characters are more pro than con, so perhaps the alternative supervisors are meant to be viewed more as broken rewards for brutal challenges rather than fair side grades.

[Tim]

Originally posted by Mellow:

So far it seems that the challenges are brutally hard, and the unlocked characters are more pro than con, so perhaps the alternative supervisors are meant to be viewed more as broken rewards for brutal challenges rather than fair side grades.

Yeah, I was confused by this. It's like... Play easy mode, do very hard mode, and unlock 10 different very easy modes. Strange and unsatisfying.

[ethiopiop]

Originally posted by Mellow:

If you have the other characters unlocked please comment their stats, I would like to see which ones are worth grinding first.

I beat amnesiac, gives octo-ny that makes squids 20x more likely to show up in shop, and also half off
also beat nubbelocke which gives Balogna Tony which randomizes some stats each round (notably shop prices, ball size, rare drop %, and level order)

[Mellow]

Stats of all characters!

From the game's discord:

Octo-ny:
*Squids are 20x more likely to appear in Nubby-Mart.
*Squids cost 50% less.

Tony-Jr:
*Starts the game with 15 coins.
*You will enter Nubby-Mart when the game starts.
*Rare and ultra rare items are twice as likely to appear in shops.

Goblony:
*You receive +3 coins per restock instead of 1.
*Maximum coins limit is raised to 200.
*You lose two lives when you launch Nubby.

Mutant Tony:
*Items have two trigger types.
*For example, an item could trigger when the round goal is passed OR when Nubby dies.
(These additional triggers are pre-determined for every item)

Glass Tony:
*All items are half priced.
*+3 rerolls in all shops.
*Items have a 5% chance to shatter when they trigger.

Hunter Tony:
*Adds a moving target to the bottom of the pegboard.
*If Nubby hits the target, gain +3 coins AND double total score.
*You cannot gain coins from restocks.

Balonga Tony:
*Many variables, values, and odds are randomized at the start of the game.
Don't question it

Criminal Tony:
*Black market items can appear in Nubby-Mart and mystery capsules.

C.E.O Tony:
*Start game with 200 coins.
*You cannot gain more coins.

Immortal Tony:
*Replaces endless mode with prestige mode.
*When you win, you can prestige.
*This restarts the game and increases the difficulty for each prestige level.
(Lose all items, perks, and food stats)

[lucianokitchen$]

I've beaten Stay There, Plain Jane, and One-Shot McGee so far and success has mostly hinged on hitting Cheese House within the first couple of shops. I don't think it's a bad strategy to restart until hitting early Cheese House if you're really struggling with a challenge. Maybe not the most satisfying way to play but I've had fun with the challenges so far regardless

[Monsieur Petit Beurre]

I was enjoying some of the challenges at first but as I knocked out the easier ones it became more painful than fun. Some of them basically require you to "solve" the game and restart until you get one of the few builds that even have a chance at winning (looking at you, Pheebie Mode), very annoying.

Now at 9/10 with only Expiration Date left and it feels like absolute hell, I'm just sending runs into the trash praying I get godlike rng.

[Muu]

i've been grinding out Pheebie-Mode and it's showing some flaws with the game.
The biggest of those is how incredibly dull the crane game is. It gives you:
- A coin gambling option that not only gives you a net loss, but even if you got good money with it you'd be getting more money than you need. Same with the Tomato, I don't want to gamble because the game already gives you roughly the amount of money you need to buy what you see in shops.
- A mystery option, which mostly just gives you common junk. Yes, another gambling option, but I don't want to take it early on when it's offered because you really need that 7th slot in case void appears.
- The key, which replaces your next shop with a useless item (can't be triggered, therefore not useful for the challenge)

Even outside of challenges it means that all the crane game is, is "do you want your next shop to be a black market instead?"

God, there's so much RNG and so little I can do in the challenge. The limited selection of perks really screws it as well, I sure do love the mystery box spawning a plastic tree on my last life and deleting all the points for the board! Yay!


Edit: Found that for Pheebie-Mode, Pants seem to be incredibly reliable, just because of the nature of how the game scales. The one redeeming feature from playing that challenge is I got to try a lot of different items to see how they scale, because a lot of items just fail to scale in the late game.

[occult pyromancer]

balatro challenges felt much easier than these. i only remember one or two that felt super unfun from that game. i’ve gotten through about 4 or 5 of these challenges so far and am having an absolutely miserable time

[GreatSphynx]

ive beaten two so far, i wish there were other ways to unlock the other supervisors, or bein able to use other supervisors on challenges would make them a lot easier (but then i guess they wouldnt be challenges huh). what i would REALLY love if there were some alternate factory layouts though that you could unlock, like ones that arent just the square with the standard grid. like one that was more like a funnel or a round one or something else idk..

[Big Joe]

I feel like these challenges don't really push the player look at the game differently, to use different items that are more beneficial different challenges than other, you're basically trying to do the same winning strategy in order to get all the skins.

[Zanaki]

yeah idk if the first challenge is the easiest, but it doesn't give me much hope for the others, its hard but mainly because its a coin flip, and then you gotta match coin flips and idk I find that very unfun, if others like it that's fine just not for me

[Al]

I agree. They're way too difficult and very rng heavy. You're just fishing for the correct build.