OVerwatch & Turning GS

[GShock]

Another nice rule to add to the custom difficulty setting, could be the ability to exclude the turning move of the GS from the overwatch firing procedure.

Considering at present time all the GS that can reach a Marine will rush for him, even without any chance of success (Check my thread on AI "rules"), if the move in which they turn 90° is EXCLUDED from overwatch, I think this would dramatically increase the GS lethality at close range.

A marine expert player will position himself properly for next turn before a bend but the GS who enter in overwatch cone from a crossing, will always show its side. At that time, this GS takes the first OW shot, then, in order to take the bend, it will turn 90° to face the marine, and here's where it takes a second shot and when it moves towards the Marine it will take a third shot. A Marine instead would approach the end of the bend and turn 90° then advance next turn diagonally already with the proper facing only exposing himself once... and that's what I'd like the GS to act like.

What I am asking is, if other judge it a good idea, to add in the custom difficulty setting a rule to EXCLUDE the GS 90° turn on the spot (which is a free move out of the GS action points) from the Overwatch firing.

I know it's a setting out of the rules but with present AI patterns I think it would be a good improvement and since it's a custom setting...

[jackx]

I'd prefer it if they tried and changed GS movement, as that's one area where the AI is clearly suboptimal, and could be improved.

[GShock]

Well, you can see they end their turn sideways sometimes.

With the 90° turn being "free" of APs, you'd expect the GS to at least face the Marine before ending their turn.

The plunder comes when this Marine is overheated.

He can advance and have a 100% win with a Melee attack (and slightly cool down the bolter) but it's actually a lot harder for the DEVs to work on the AI, when compared to a fix of this kind.

I'm just talking the easy way, we know the AI needs improvement but this is easy, the AI isn't.

The fact is that the GS are basically forced into bottlenecks that end in corridors which means they move in line. The first GS of the line may be doomed to suicide but for the purpose of ammo/heat consumption. The second, the same, the third the same... but ...

... each component of this line has a higher chance to survive, counterbalanced with a lower chance to reach the marine (because the third GS starts 1 square behind the second and the second starts 1 square behind the first).

By removing the 90° turn from the OW capability, you're actually adding an increased chance to reach that marine and this means the marine has to be farther away from the corner... shooting from greater distance.

Obviously, I'd already be happy if the GS ended their turn always facing the closest marine and started their turn with the turning move required to advance straight without turning 90° under the cone of overwatch... it's all in the hands of the DEVs, I'm sure they'll know what to do here.

[jackx]

Well, your "fix" would act as a buff for GS in any situation where a temrinator player positions the termiantor in such a way that the GS has to step in front of him and then turn (i.e. in a doorway/directly at an intersection), which is to me a valid tactic, providing a second overwatch shot from one tile, but at the risk of standing right next to what could be an Acid Maw GS or other unpleasant biomorph.

The way this could work is if the game differentiated free 90° turns (have to be combined with a move action that costs 1 or more AP) and 1 AP 90° turns (turning in place), and only allowed overwatch fire for the latter.

Of course, there's also the fact that the missions are designed around terminators capable of killing multipe GS/turn with only 1-2 tiles of overwatch in front of them, so while this change would increase the threat factor of the GS, this could lead to other balance/difficulty issues.

[datguy13]

Originally posted by jackx:

Well, your "fix" would act as a buff for GS

Haven't you figured out yet that all of his 'suggestions' are intended to buff Genestealers and nerf Terminators? It's like he thinks he's already playing multiplayer, exclusively as a GS player. Every 'suggestion' he's made so far serves only to artificially inflate the base difficulty of the game and provide advantages for the Genestealers by enforcing his tedious house rules.

Originally posted by jackx:

Of course, there's also the fact that the missions are designed around terminators capable of killing multipe GS/turn with only 1-2 tiles of overwatch in front of them, so while this change would increase the threat factor of the GS, this could lead to other balance/difficulty issues.

"Could" lead to balance issues? More like 'guaranteed' to lead to balance issues. Terminators do not get an Overwatch shot at Genestealers who are taking their "free facing turn" in Space Hulk-Boardgame already, and that typically results in a dead Terminator if they do that free-face within two tiles of the Terminator.

It's also likely to increase the performance issues as well, considering it would mean the CPU will have to calculate quite a few additional data entries when it has to plot movement, checking against each individual facing turn to make sure it costs AP or not. Have you noticed that when multiple Terminators are moving simulataneously, if some of them are turning corners or doing a complex series of turn-and-face moves, that there is usually a 5-10 frame slowdown? You'd be applying that same lag to the Genestealer turn, on top of the shooting lag, the Flamer lag, and the lighting lag from Overwatch cones that's already there. Might be a bit too much.

[jackx]

Yes, "could". As in "I don't see how it won'tl, but I'm phrasing it nicely". ;)

I'm also not overly fond of categorical claims and absolute statements in arguments on principlie.

The performance impact is a factor I hadn't considered at all.

[GShock]

A quick solution of this kind wouldn't be needed if the GS performed their end move properly by facing (free move) the Marines at the end of their move.

It just looks like when their 6th and last AP is used each individual GS ends his turn "forgetting" to turn properly for the upcoming bend. If the 6th AP ends the GS with its side facing the Marine, the AI "forgets" it can turn sideways for free.

Sometimes this extra turn would end in a OW fire and sometimes not because that Marine's bolter is overheating. The AI doesn't do this final turn move in any case.

I know it would be best to have them turn properly when still in cover but lacking that... this quick, optional, proposed fix would help until they find some time to patch the AI.

[datguy13]

Originally posted by jackx:

Yes, "could". As in "I don't see how it won'tl, but I'm phrasing it nicely". ;)

I'm also not overly fond of categorical claims and absolute statements in arguments on principlie.

The performance impact is a factor I hadn't considered at all.

Duly noted. I'm not interested in a heated argument with you, so I'll check my wording in the future. ;)

Originally posted by GShock:

A quick solution of this kind wouldn't be needed if the GS performed their end move properly by facing (free move) the Marines at the end of their move.

You're under the assumption that Genestealers should get an auto-face move. They don't. If they run out of AP when trying to close and can't turn to face, that's how it is. Although there is an issue with Genestealers 'forgetting' to face if they have AP remaining, there are also times when they run out of AP while attempting to close into melee. At no point, in the actual rules of Space Hulk, have they been allowed to automatically face a Terminator who did not attack them first when the Genestealer runs out of AP without facing. The only time auto-facing rules apply is during a melee Tie result or a Genestealer with multiple Wound levels surviving a melee/ranged attack.

Ultimately, if the Genestealer does not calculate its move effectively, then it is going to get shot in the side or the back. Things like that happen all the time in human-played Space Hulk games.