Any reason to use an Assault Cannon instead of a Heavy Flamer?

[RoflTank]

I find that, for the Salamanders at least, the Heavy Flamer has little to no drawbacks. I can use it to: cover retreats by dousing a Terminator (and the immediate area) in flames, completely block intersections, take down veritable hordes of GS in one shot, cleanse control rooms, cleanse bodies, determine if there are Broodlords in a conga line, and light up dark hallways.

The Vulkan patter flamer + Incinerator perk lets me have 10 units of fuel per flamer for a total of 20 fuel per mission. I can, quite literally, douse an entire level in flames and still not run out. The description might say the flames are less powerful, but it still bakes GS just fine in my experience.

Now why would anyone want to use an AC? Barring current bugs (F-ed up model, 50 rounds expended per firing, etc.) with the AC, I just don't see the use. Sure, you still end up with an effective 10 firings (when it's using the right amount of ammo), but you can only kill 1 GS at a time with it. I tend to average ~2-3 kills per firing with my HF Termies, meaning I can get ~20-30 kills by the time I run out of fuel (except I've never actually run out of fuel with them).

Personally, it seems like a failure in the AC's rules. Instead of being akin to an LMG, and being used as a support weapon, you've basically got a crappy single target HF. If you had the ability to reload it infinitely (like a Storm Bolter) for 4 AP (CD for 2 AP), I could see the appeal. But you can't, which just relegates it to hangar queen duty.


I'd like to hear some thoughts on this.

[Teddy]

Funny, since I for once find assault cannon pretty much on par with flamer - in different situations, of course. AC's main upside is that it can kill Broodlords. Nay - it massacres them. AC is an excelent tool when you face long, thin corridors. E.g, one of the Blood Angels missions, where you have to kill a number of Gene's and then proceed to the armoury. There's a sweet spot, on the upper left side of the map, where you can set your autocannon-equipped heavy. Gene's will spawn from their lairs, run towards him, but will not reach him. Then, when there's a bunch of them stacked one behind the other, you bring out your big dakka and mow two-three Gene's for the price of one. Or in the Ultramarines campaign mission (I think it's the first Very Hard one), where most of the mission is just your squads fighting through two separate, long, thin corridors. A heavy with AC isn't neccessary there, but he'll greatly help, whether in hacking your way forward, or getting rid of the pesky aliens at your back.

[stuw23]

Originally posted by RoflTank:

ISure, you still end up with an effective 10 firings (when it's using the right amount of ammo), but you can only kill 1 GS at a time with it. I tend to average ~2-3 kills per firing with my HF Termies, meaning I can get ~20-30 kills by the time I run out of fuel (except I've never actually run out of fuel with them).

AC can kill multiple enemies in one shot. The bullets "carry through", so if you have a few genestealers in a line behind the one you target, all of them will be hit.

And as mentioned above, the AC absolutely slaughters broodlords, whilst they are immune to the flamer.

[RoflTank]

Hmmm. Never enough long, thing corridors on the Salamanders campaign maps for consistent lines of GS. Another reason why the HF is my go to Heavy Weapon, you can burn around corners and lock winding corridors down hard.

But I had figured that the AC could carry through to the tile behind its target, and that they'd be good for Broodlords. Still feel they lack enough utility to take the HF's place though.

[jackx]

Here we go (again).:

In short, you might want to use it because the AC chews through multi-HP targets like no other, including multi-HP targets that your flamers can't even damage.


Sounds to me like you haven't even tried using it, based on the mistaken assumption that it can only kill 1 GS per attack.
The regular 1AP burst covers a row of up to 3 tiles, the 2 AP spray spreads the same amount of ammo (10 rounds) over a 3x3 square.
Add two reloads, for a total of 3x100 rounds for the unmodified default AC, and you're looking at quite a bit of hard-hitting killing power.

The Salamanders can douse entire levels in flame and thus make combat largely optional by walking through fire (so can others with Fireproof), and the changes to fire with the Salamanders update, i.e. Broodlords no longer walking through burning tiles, has made this feasible even against said flame-immune Broodlords, which previously would've just strolled up to you and torn you apart in close combat.

Assault Cannons (and the Cyclone, and Plasma) are alternative options to the Heavy Flamer - use them if you want, and because they're situationally advantageous, not because they're all-out upgrades meant to be better at everything.

[datguy13]

Originally posted by RoflTank:

Instead of being akin to an LMG, and being used as a support weapon,

Here's your problem. You're looking at the weapon the wrong way and expecting it to provide a role it's not meant to provide.

The weapon is called the Assault Cannon for a reason. It's a heavy chain-gun, not an MG42. It's not built to support or provide suppression fire, it's built to sweep through entire corridors on its own and chew through enemies stupid enough to be in the general vicinity of it. I won't belabor what the the others have said, but instead will just caution you to modify your thinking first, then try to experiment with the weapon to see where its true potential lay.

[RoflTank]

Originally posted by jackx:

Because the AC chews through multi-HP targets like no other, including multi-HP targets that your flamers can't even damage.


Sounds to me like you haven't even tried using it, based on the mistaken assumption that it can only kill 1 GS per attack.
The regular 1AP burst covers a row of up to 3 tiles, the spray spreads the same amount of ammo (10 rounds) over a 3x3 square.
Add two reloads, for a total of 3x100 rounds for the unmodified default AC, and you're looking at quite a bit of hard-hitting killing power.

The Salamanders can douse entire levels in flame and thus make combat largely optional by walking through fire (so can others with Fireproof), and the changes to fire with the Salamanders update, i.e. Broodlords no longer walking through burning tiles, has made this feasible even against said flame-immune Broodlords, which previously would've just strolled up to you and torn you apart in close combat.

Assault Cannons (and the Cyclone, and Plasma) are alternative options to the Heavy Flamer - use them if you want, and because they're situationally advantageous, not because they're all-out upgrades meant to be better at everything.

I've used AC's before, but I've never actually been able to use them in an environment that would play to their strengths. I'll have to load up the IF campaign and take some AC Heavies for a spin there. They've got lots of long, 3 tile wide corridors on those maps so I hear, and less cramped spaces/winding corridors.

Interesting on the reloads though, I didn't see any mention of 2(!) reloads for the default AC... The number of reloads in combination with finally knowing their actual mechanics is quite a shocker. Might have to start taking AC's more often.


Thanks for the info!

Originally posted by datguy13:

Originally posted by RoflTank:

Instead of being akin to an LMG, and being used as a support weapon,

Here's your problem. You're looking at the weapon the wrong way and expecting it to provide a role it's not meant to provide.

The weapon is called the Assault Cannon for a reason. It's a heavy chain-gun, not an MG42. It's not built to support or provide suppression fire, it's built to sweep through entire corridors on its own and chew through enemies stupid enough to be in the general vicinity of it. I won't belabor what the the others have said, but instead will just caution you to modify your thinking first, then try to experiment with the weapon to see where its true potential lay.

Apologies for the poor wording, but let me assure that's NOT what I think the AC is for. I said "support weapon" and "LMG", and you've automatically jumped to the wrong conclusion because of that.

When I say "support", I mean "chew up hordes of GS so the other guys don't have to", and I meant that from the outset. It seemed to suck HARD at the job it was supposed to do. The fact I didn't know its mechanics or that it had 2 reloads is the entire reason I made this thread.


I now know better than that, and will begin to bring the Emperor's Light to these filthy xenos through 6 barrels of vengeance and hatred.

[jackx]

The reload count increase is indeed hidden away in some patch notes, but the attacks' Area of Effect is visible if you select attack type via the radial menu.

The AC also has some powerful relic upgrades available.

[Harukage]

I find ACs more preferable for my Space Wolves. When you play more actively flamers will just slow you down.

[Teddy]

Originally posted by jackx:

The AC also has some powerful relic upgrades available.

While I maintain my humble opinion of AC being a good gap (gangsta!), I'm not sure if their relics are really that powerful. Ammo increase, yes, that is a great one, but otherwise, huh... +damage is kinda pointless, since autocannon shoots ten bullets, and most of them usually hit - which leads me to +hit chance being useless as well. At least I, using heavies with 4 Ballistics, practically always have a hit chance between 90% - 100%. Heat gauge upgrade never seemed useful as well, seeing how I literaly never had a problem with my autocannon overheating.

[jackx]

+ attacks/ammo is really good on the AC IMHO.
+CtH also never hurts, maximizing damage output, as the CtH you see displayed is aggregate CtH, i.e.the chance that at least one of the 10+ shots your're firing hits one target.

BS 5 + 2x CtH perk + BL slayer is pretty much required for an unupgraded AC if you want to regularly gib 3 Broodlords (incl.4 HP ones) per burst.

[Teddy]

I see. Still, I never really needed them AC relics, the gun always performed excelent. Perhaps it will be a different story on Hard. Come to think of it, perhaps I should refrain from arguments until I complete the game on Hard...

... nah, I'm too much of an inquisitive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ for that.

[Buzzles]

AC relics are silly good, I stumbled accross a +30% CTH, along with a whooping +3 damage (ok, pointless :) ) in one play through. I've also seen a big +30 ammo (might be a bigger one) and a +5 heat as well.

Things to add to this thread though:
Heavy Flamer has one reload only.
AC has two reloads.

AC usage tip:
Don't use AC in overwatch unless really needed. I've tried it a few times and it looks as if the bullet pass through effect doesn't apply in overwatch and you just kill single GS. Manual mode works fine.

AC's really shine in the support role when you get ranged terminators up to level ~6 where they can start using combi-flamers to take over the corridor blocking role, leaving AC to be used when needed.

[datguy13]

Originally posted by 5punk Buzzles:

Don't use AC in overwatch unless really needed. I've tried it a few times and it looks as if the bullet pass through effect doesn't apply in overwatch and you just kill single GS. Manual mode works fine.

.

The three tile template does still apply in Overwatch, it's just that usually there isn't a Genestealer behind the one targetted by Overwatch to kill, so it's kind of a waste of ammo. I found this out the hard way when using a AC Heavy in a crossfire with another terminator and accidentally friendly-fire'd the other Terminator. >.<


So make a note: If you suddenly decide you want to kill your own Terminators off, use the Assault Cannon, it gets the job done in record time. XD