Weapon description/real stats

[Vargas]

Hi all, does someone know where I can find an up to date list of all the weapons and their capacities? Especially the melee weapons, something must be wrong with them: when I use thunder hammers my sergeant still has a tiny chance to miss and die, both in offense and defense, while when I'm using the power sword with +30%defense, he is almost immortal, only the broodlords are still a threat for him.

[datguy13]

There is always a tiny chance to die in Melee. You're just getting really lucky with the Power Sword. There's a few posts here on the forums which explain it. Just look for anything with Melee in the title to research it.

Love your avatar picture btw. Indestructible was one of my favorite cover art and albums.

[Vargas]

Ok, Thanks. Yes, Indestructible has a good art, and a good song^^.
About the sword, I have 100% hit chance in offense, except against broodlords, I don't know for the defense. If really it's luck... I may be protected by the Emperor Himself!

[lynchie72]

In my limited experience Melee Terminators seem like a waste of time. They die like flies. Only the Sergeant with the Power Sword works (defensively).

Have been using IF chapter and the extra toughness doesn't seem to help much.

[SweatyBalls]

In my opinion range>melee

If you want melee to work, you have to try and "draw" with the genestealer in each fight.
What that means is basically, making sure the GS doesnt hit you more than you hit it, in each fight. A draw is coded to favor the terminator.

With swords, axes, power gloves, chain fists you only get one "swing" per fight. So if that hits, you only get one hit max. With claws i think you get two "swings" per fight. So if they both hit, you get two hits.

Terminations only have 1 HP, and each hit that you land more than you receive does 1 HP damage.

Most GS have two "swings", some have more. Most GS have 1 HP, some have more.

Bonus factors that help you hit for each swing are attack bonuses from weapons, weapon skill atttribute and any skills. There are other situation bonuses. Malus factors that reduce your chance of hitting include the GS's toughness. There are other situational maluses.

Your toughness will help reduce the chance of the GS hitting you per swing. Defence bonuses from weapons also reduces the chance of getting hit.

So if youre fighting a GS with two swings and you have one swing, you need good toughness and weapon defence to cause the GS's swings to miss. If both swings miss, then it scores zero hits, and the best it can do is draw with you... so you win and deal 1 HP damage even if you miss your swing. If one GS swing hits, you will need to score a hit yourself to win. If both GS swings hit, you can only win lightning claws (two swings), and only if both your swings hit.

High toughness with the third thunder hammer unlock works well, increasing the chance of the GS missing its hits. Of course having some weapon skill as well will help you land your swing, which complements your good defence.

Power swords must have some other kind of bonus like a parry or some hidden stuff, because it works better than it seems.

This is how i understand it, i might be wrong lol.

[Vargas]

Thanks guys and checksum, indeed, for me, power sword >>>> thunder hammer,
that's a pity, I'd like to use it...

[Umbrella Incorporated]

Melee absolutely sucks. I've lost over a dozen Terminators to melee engagements in which they had a 90% chance of hitting or more. For some reason, it seems like I have a better chance of surviving in melee if the genesteelers attack me first rather than me attack them.

[SweatyBalls]

Oh there is a guard bonus to defence too i think maybe, which might explain the "surviving better when being attacked". Doesnt make any sense realism wise, unless fighting is based on Mayweather style of counter punching. Tactically, it means melee might be useful temporarily plugging holes

[datguy13]

The biggest thing to remember, as checksum explains in detail, is that Chance to Hit =/= to chance to win. It all comes down to those multiple attacks Genestealers get per encounter, and the Terminator's Weapon Skill and Toughness. Build Terminators explicitly with those two stats, throw the Crusher variant Thunderhammer/Stormshield and the attack variant Lightning Claws into the mix,and it's actually possible to run entire squads of Melee loadout Terminators who have over a 95% survival rate.

The other key point of note is that Melee load-outs are for high level Terminators. The variant model weapons are equalizers, support units in the squad have much more power at their disposal, and key skills become available at later levels which tip the balance back in favor of the Terminators.

Tactics for melee load-outs need to differentiate signficantly from regular mixed squad or Ranged load-outs. You have to set your squads with LC attackers advancing aggressively during your turn, then follow up and defend bottle-necks with TH/SS Terminators taking their place during Genestealer turns. Given that Melee load-outs never need to save AP for Overwatch, they're designed for lightning fast blitzes across the board where Terminators leapfrog from corridor to corridor, over the usual methodical plod you see in a mixed or Ranged squad.

Supporting the squad with a Heavy Flamer, and using Fire Proof is a great way to increase survivability as well. Flame a room when you can't control it otherwise, walk your Terminators into it, and then when the Genestealers cluster at the flame's border, flame them on your next turn and advance through the immolated bodies. Librarians and Apothecaries can also signficantly turn Melee into an overpowering strategy as well, with the Toughness bonuses they provide from various Psyker powers or from Metabolic Enhancer.

In the end though, Defense% is the absolute "last-word" in melee. Get that high enough on your Terminators, and the only way one dies is if the Genestealer has a Biomorph that provides it four attacks and an attack buff--- meaning only a Broodlord or a Scything Talon Genestealer can beat you. This is why the Power Sword seems so powerful: it has an innate, very high Defense% at its disposal, making the Sergeant even stronger than his baseline stats might imply.

There is, of course, one caveat to all of this: Feeder Tendril biomorphs. You can compensate for Acid Maw biomorphs with an extremely high Toughness or the Acid Proof skill, but a Feeder Tendril has an almost non-existent chance of being avoided, it does not count as a melee attack, and it cuts your Terminator's Defense% in half for the next turn---making it extremely lethal.

One last thing, the obvious: Attacking from a flank or rear is a guaranteed kill. So don't leave your sides or rear open, and try to flank the Genestealer you want to attack where ever possible.

[lynchie72]

Thanks for all the advice.

I have an Imperial Fists level 8 Melee terminator in one of my squads. He has 5 Toughness and 4 Weapon Skill.
He has Hammer Fall; Master of Melee and Acid Proof skills. I have unlocked all the weapons except the last Thunder Hammer (Crusher).

He is still almost useless unless I arm him with a Bolter. It won't happen now but some balancing is needed to make Melee weapons a more viable loadout for Terminators.

[datguy13]

Melee weapons are as balanced as they're going to get. Space Hulk: Ascension is designed on the principle of "asymetrical balance": one side excels at Ranged combat, the other side excels at close-quarters combat. Genestealers don't get to shoot you from 14 squares away, so you don't get to equal them in number of attacks per melee encounter.

Again: Number of attacks is key. Whether you are the attacker or defender, the Genestealer will attack you up to four times. You only trade a maximum of two attacks, if you have Lightning Claws, otherwise you get one. The successful hits are added up at the end of each exchange, and the one with more actual hits wins. Needless to say, the only way a Terminator survives is if he can Defend against at least three of the four possible attacks dealt to him while dealing at least 1 hit himself. The Terminator defends by having a high enough Melee Defense% to reduce any Genestealer CtHs to as close to 0% as possible.

[lynchie72]

So you need a high toughness and weapon skill Terminator to stand any reasonable chance of winning a melee encounter. And the only way to get him to that level is have him earn experience using ranged weapons (a Bolter) for most of the campaign missions.

[Riven311]

so ok its funny to me that people think terminators in melee are going to be good. I play the table top game and a fan of the lore. Terminators lore wise are elite type of troop. so yes they are going to be best of the army but as well....they are the most slow moveing and acting units more so when armed with a power fist. (infact rule was this means they can try to hit last)

now the genestealers are there races elite as well one the few type of troop that can think for them selfs....and are on game ALL the time. there melee are claws that infact...rip apart TANKS there as well fast and land a ton of blows. there as well have better skills for melee then a terminator.

so thats a little lore wise. now this dont work for the game play that well but there is some of it in the game.

[LarkinVB]

Sounds a bit one dimensional to be real big fun. Melee should be an option which is usefull. But I guess that they won't change balance, just fixing bugs. Thanks for that at least.

[Riven311]

Originally posted by LarkinVB:

Sounds a bit one dimensional to be real big fun. Melee should be an option which is usefull. But I guess that they won't change balance, just fixing bugs. Thanks for that at least.

Melee for terminators with powerfists are really last chance for them in melee. theres far more gear that can make them far better. I see this as more how the board game was like. that was good fun! lol

[dv]

Originally posted by LarkinVB:

Melee should be an option which is usefull.

Melee is an option. With TH Crusher and SS Pavise. Requires level IX. Best used with Imperial/Crimson Fists. The SB is the better option, though.