Melee worthless?

[Megas Stevros]

Can someone tell me whether my gut feeling is correct, that melee is absolutely worthless? The risk of getting a Terminator killed in melee compared to just shooting point blank with no repercussions if you miss make melee pointless to engage in?

I've never used the Space Wolves because I perceive them to be gimped compared to everyone else. Do any of you build melee characters?

[PRIPYAT RESIDENT]

The entire game is worthless. Buy the new one!

https://store.steampowered.com/app/492230/Space_Hulk_Tactics/

[Umbrella Incorporated]

Melee is VERY heavily in favor of the zenos. Avoid melee at all costs. The Space Wolves do have some perks and equipment that makes melee much better for them, but still avoid it if you can.

Originally posted by SOFA KING GREAT!:

The entire game is worthless. Buy the new one!

Which one exactly? Link please.

[8-The-General-8]

I was going to buy but happened upon this review:

https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197995286189/recommended/317620/

Are the issues stated in this review fixed or not, as it looks pretty neat.

Thanks for any feedback on this. Sorry for adding it here but the post above at least makes it a bit relevant.

[WorldEater]

Originally posted by SOFA KING GREAT!:

The entire game is worthless. Buy the new one!

https://store.steampowered.com/app/492230/Space_Hulk_Tactics/

Bought it yesterday at the start of the sale and refunded after the second mission. In a game where one mistake or miss-click can cost you the entire mission, you should not add in a bunch of meaningless systems and options. I would of much rather they focused on actually making a FPS space hulk style. The hybrid version that is tactics, is boring and comical in a bad way.

To answer the OP, I think melee is a last ditch effort at survival in space hulk games. I personally build my termies with as much AP and accuracy as possible. Increasing range, accuracy, and establishing overlapping fields of fire FTW.

[8-The-General-8]

Thank you ^^^

[NotPudding]

It depends on your terminator. Generally speaking, melee is very dangerous unless you invest points into toughness and use a weapon stronger than the power fist. A level 8 Sergeant with the defensive power sword and 5 toughness only has to worry about broodlords or the tentacle genestealers. He'll win a melee fight against anything else %100 of the time

[dv]

TS5 and a +30% defense weapon are not sufficient to win against biomorphs (acid, flesh hook, feeder tendril) 100% of the time. You can rach a perfect 100%. But that is not it.

[mass]

I think the main problem with melee is that it's so tactically boring. Ironically, melee is terribly passive gameplay. There's no melee "overwatch" so you can't place your terminators to help each other. A GS can literally run right past a terminator and the terminator won't do anything to save his brothers.

And since a GS hitting a terminator from the sides or the back = instant death, that means your only tactic is to place your terminators so the GS's first hit is from the front.

That's it. ONE tactic, forever. It's INSANELY one-dimensional and boring gameplay.



edit: ---

What I mean is that you can never have more than 1 melee terminator guarding 1 angle, there's no overlap like in ranged Overwatch.

Let's imagine all the terminators in the screenshots below are Melee terminators.

Guarding the right door with 1 melee terminator is the optimal tactic (and the only tactic): https://i.imgur.com/2FVsUgE.png

Guarding the right door it with 3 melee is literally a waste of 2 melee terminators because melee terminators can only hit back, and only 1 of them gets attacked: https://i.imgur.com/gxxiy9f.png

And even more ironically, something like this is a losing position, again because NONE of the 3 melee terminators will hit first. A single GS can just run strait past the 2 melee terminators at the door, and then it can attack all of the terminators from the sides for 3 easy kill: https://i.imgur.com/Zj9SGdo.png

Melee combat is insanely one dimensional and boring. Because this is your only tactic option: https://i.imgur.com/2FVsUgE.png

[dv]

Originally posted by mass:

IIronically, melee is terribly passive gameplay.

That is a very good point.


1)
Does anyone have suggestion how to improve melee combat?


2)
Former guard mode. I bought the game after the developers removed it. Can anyone tell me how, exactly, it worked? Fragments of it are still in the code. I don't want to bring it back. But knowing what it was tells me what not to do.

[mass]

1) Just spit balling here, but a Guard Mode cant be unlimited. There needs to be a resource, similar to Overheat/Reload for ranged Overwatch.
A way could be if a terminator has 4 Weapon Skill, then Guard Mode means that terminator can attack the square right in front of the terminator 4 times before Guard Mode gets "overheated". That adds some tactical decisions if you want to overlap Guard Modes of multiple terminators or what you wanna do.

2) I never played the game when the Guard Mode was enabled. Don't know if it was ever in the game tbh? Maybe the reason why they stripped it out, is that it opens up for cheesing tactics where terminators always get a free hit in on the side of a GS, if you place your terminator hiding right besides a door opening.
But then again, ranged gets tonnes of free hits with Overwatch. Probably not THAT imbalanced if Guard Mode potentially gives 1 free hit, before the GS turns to face the terminator. The free hit would also be limited if Guard Mode could be "overheated".
Another potential reason for them removing Guard Mode could be that it magnifies poor AI from the GS.

[vegaphantom]

Originally posted by mass:

1) Just spit balling here, but a Guard Mode cant be unlimited. There needs to be a resource, similar to Overheat/Reload for ranged Overwatch.
A way could be if a terminator has 4 Weapon Skill, then Guard Mode means that terminator can attack the square right in front of the terminator 4 times before Guard Mode gets "overheated". That adds some tactical decisions if you want to overlap Guard Modes of multiple terminators or what you wanna do.

2) I never played the game when the Guard Mode was enabled. Don't know if it was ever in the game tbh? Maybe the reason why they stripped it out, is that it opens up for cheesing tactics where terminators always get a free hit in on the side of a GS, if you place your terminator hiding right besides a door opening.
But then again, ranged gets tonnes of free hits with Overwatch. Probably not THAT imbalanced if Guard Mode potentially gives 1 free hit, before the GS turns to face the terminator. The free hit would also be limited if Guard Mode could be "overheated".
Another potential reason for them removing Guard Mode could be that it magnifies poor AI from the GS.

1)Agree with all, it's the best way i can imagine to implement overwatch for melee.

2)I not think it's be so imbalanced/cheesing if it the melee attack of the terminator uses the attack modifier of the weapon in this situations, and the defensive modifier of the weapon when attacked by a GS.

dv, i think this is a great addition for your cold corridor combat mod, because now, even with your upgrades, weapons like the wolf claws or the thunder hammer/storm shield are absolute pointless.

[dv]

Originally posted by vegaphantom:

1)Agree with all, it's the best way i can imagine to implement overwatch for melee.

I'm not convinced it is.
Possible scenario:
Terminator attacks GS during GS move. GS wins, kills Termkinator and does not even spend an AP to do it. That leaves him with one more AP to attack other Terminators.

Besides, nobody seems able to tell me how guard mode worked.

Originally posted by vegaphantom:

2)I not think it's be so imbalanced/cheesing if it the melee attack of the terminator uses the attack modifier of the weapon in this situations, and the defensive modifier of the weapon when attacked by a GS.

That is not how melee works. Every round of melee uses both attack and defence values.

I agree that for most weapons the second of three variants is not very useful. For melee weapons, it is suicide.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/317620/discussions/0/1735468061769883196/

[vegaphantom]

Originally posted by vegaphantom:

2)I not think it's be so imbalanced/cheesing if it the melee attack of the terminator uses the attack modifier of the weapon in this situations, and the defensive modifier of the weapon when attacked by a GS.

That is not how melee works. Every round of melee uses both attack and defence values.

I agree that for most weapons the second of three variants is not very useful. For melee weapons, it is suicide.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/317620/discussions/0/1735468061769883196/ [/quote]


Thx for the info. In this case for not have always a free hit placing a termie next to a door simply making able to use this free melee attack as many times as the WS of the termie.

Originally posted by dv:

Originally posted by vegaphantom:

1)Agree with all, it's the best way i can imagine to implement overwatch for melee.

I'm not convinced it is.
Possible scenario:
Terminator attacks GS during GS move. GS wins, kills Termkinator and does not even spend an AP to do it. That leaves him with one more AP to attack other Terminators.

Besides, nobody seems able to tell me how guard mode worked.


Sorry, i don't know either how this guard mode work.

[Quirky2]

Actually, the three image examples are suboptimal, which goes to show that there obviously are more to melee, not much but a little. :-)

Two people guarding a door leave themselves open to side attacks, that is true. But two meleers standing side by side increases the number of squares the GS has to run by one. And that often makes all the difference. The first GS or three will be taken out by the ranged over watch. The remaining will most likely not make it far enough into the room and still be able to attack. So they get stuck in the room or have to attack the meleers. On your turn the meleers mop up the survivors still in the room. The ranged guy clears his bolter and mabye shoot one guy that is still visible in the corridor and then goes back to OW.

[mass]

Quirky2 your example of tactical melee terminator placement, requires a ranged terminator to be relevant. Hopefully you see the irony :)