So which Combi Weapons are good?

[JerryMullins]

So, I have a ranged Imperial Fists terminator named Norman who has just unlocked a Combi Bolter\Flamer weapon, and it's awesome (in my eyes). 12 bolter shots, 4 flamer shots, no spending AP to cool down the weapon is very nice. It's also very efficient in Overwatch.

That brings me to my question.

So far, the only Combi Weapon I've unlocked is the Combi Bolter\Flamer. I know I'll unlock more Combi weapons as my Terminators level up, but my question is, what Combi Weapons do you use most often? What are the best Combi Weapons? What are the Worst Combi Weapons?

[jackx]

The main feature of all combi weapons is the bolter, due to its ability to chew through 1-HP targets with ease,

Combi-flamers, either the default or the long pattern (with more ammo) are always going to be useful, particularly when faced with air ducts.

The 3-range combi-melta can be somewhat useful situationally.

The increased volatility (i.e. chance to insta-gib and hit the next target in a line) combi-plasma is nice on a Sgt, and something I frequently take even on hard or impossible, because the plasma can wreck entire corridors of multi-HP targets.

Even without upgrades, I've been leaning towards storm bolters for a while now, though, as the ability to kill multi-HP targets in one tile of overwatch and suppression fire are more useful when you're dealing with shorter fire lanes and facing more GS than you can kill.

[dv]

Those Boltes are nice in long corridors. 12 shots on overwatch are great. If you get multiple shots against each target. It only requires 1 AP to reload. Storm Bolters need ro reload and cool twice for 3 AP. That gives you two extra AP to spend on movement or shooting.

Bolters need high BS. More then Storm Bolters. Eagle Eye is worth using.

Regarding flamers, the long pattern is best. Personally I prefere wide pattern over focused. It goes further around corners in tight corridors.

Meltas are not good.

Plasma allows to empty the Bolter on overwatch, spend 1 AP to reload, shoot plasma at long range and have a full Bolter magazine for overwatch.

Originally posted by jackx:

The increased volatility (i.e. chance to insta-gib and hit the next target in a line) combi-plasma is nice on a Sgt, and something I frequently take even on hard or impossible, because the plasma can wreck entire corridors of multi-HP targets.

Could you elaborate on the difference between the three plasma variants, please? Which skills do you use on such a Sergeant? What exactly does Annihilator do?

[jackx]

The Valthek-II (iirc) has better CtH and possibly chance to go volatile, and 25 plasma shots are enough for just about all missions.

That's the entire process of selection/elimination, I never bothered testing extensively, as the main reason to pick a combi-weapon is always going to be the bolter.

Annihilator is supposed to increase the chance of the plasma going volatile, though I've never tested how much of a difference it might make, because it's not very likely to be worth a perk slot on a command unit whose main purpose is bolter overwatch.

[Black Sheep Wall]

I think this depends on your AP.

In my experience the stock Combi-Plasma performs better.

Here's why:

I agree with you that the Bolter is the highlight of the Combi-Bolter.
The biggest advantage is that you can get a full 12 shots on OW under ideal conditions.
Assuming that you are posted up and not moving, in order to maintain this capability all you have to do is reload on your turn. This is a huge improvement over SB maintanence, as it cuts your weapon maintanence down to 1 AP from 3.

Here is where the Combi-Plasma shines.
In order to preserve the 12 shot potential, you ONLY need 1 AP to fully reset each turn.
That is no different than any other Combi-Weapon.
However, the Combi-Plasma offers you a different firing mode that is mechanically similar to bolter fire, BUT DOES NOT DEPLETE YOUR MAGAZINE.
Thus, you do not need to reload TWICE on your own turn if you fire ON YOUR TURN.
This means that for the Combi-Plasma specifically, you will always only need 1 AP to reset and can funnel your excess AP into Plasma shots.

With the stock Combi-Plasma, the practical breakdown is this:
My last playthrough my SGT had 5 Agility on Hard.
Including Command AP this breaks down to 1+5+2=8 AP.
Paying my 1 maintenance AP and 2 OW AP this leaves me with 5 AP.
5 AP is exactly 5 Plasma shots and bordering Overheating (It actually could explode on the last shot).
Without risking overheat, I can fire 12 shots on OW and 4 shots on my own turn.
Not accounting for volitile, this can potentially result in 16 wounds AND still have 1 AP left over to reposition or to change your initial facing.

The Valthek however, has less ammo and generates more heat.
It is unclear if it goes volitile more often.
Practically, this means you can only fire 2 shots before you risk overheat.

During my current playthrough, I'm planning on building 1 less AP and 1 more BS.
This is going to align perfectly with the stock Plasma, whereas the Valthek will generally produce 1 less shot.

As a general rule, weight of fire generates more wounds than accuracy, so I tend towards the basic Plasma vs the Valthek. Also, I do take Annihilator and find the results to be adequate for the skill slot used.

The other Variant has the reverse issue.
You technically get more shots, but you're gonna have problems having the AP to push those other shots. The stock version seems to hit the sweet spot between AP/Overheat.

In the end I think the Valthek would perform well if you have less than 7 AP on your SGT and the other variant would perform well if you have 10+ AP. However, those values seem pretty impractical to me.

As an aside, I can push 9 AP and get 5 shots and a CD if my Librarian casts Prescience in range with a base of 5 AP. However, this is very niche scenario.

Current playthrough, I'm going to run 5 BS vs 4 and 4 Agility vs 5. This should result in the same excess of 4 Plasma shots on my turn, which will result in more wounds because of the additional 1 BS, but I will be giving up the ability to change facing unless I have my libby nearby. I don't THINK this will proc volitile more often, but depending on how exactly it works it might. But that last bit is just a bit of theorycrafting.

Also, note that the Plasma half cannot fire in OW and hence, always fully cools down on the Genestealer turn, which is pretty neat.
Also, it should be noted that while it seems the Plasma has a lower CtH than the bolter, it does have a much longer range, meaning that CtH dropoff due to long range is much lower.
There comes a point where a plasma shot is more accurate than a bolter shot based on the range involved. Fairly niche, but sometimes it pays out. It's nice being able to choose the better CtH on critical shots even if you might have to reload twice.

Not trying to be confrontational or anything, just wanted to chime in with my experience with the different versions of the Combi-Plasma.

[jackx]

You're right, of course, I should've added that my point of view is that of a player who avoids having terminators with more AP than the GS.
I like the Valthek precisely because I don't ruthelssly min/max my way through the game, and it fits that approach better than the default.

Maximum firepower with maximum AP is the obvious way to go, shoot everything and don't worry about mobility because you're faster than the GS anyways.

[Black Sheep Wall]

Given those constraints I'd have to agree that the Valthek would perform better than stock.

What chapter are you running and which skills?
Base AP and BS?

Just curious.

OT: List your full squads if you'd like.

[Valmar]

Awesome stuff here guys. Valid points all.
I have a few questions though:


1) Does improved photolenses work with combi weapons?


2)

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

Current playthrough, I'm going to run 5 BS vs 4 and 4 Agility vs 5.

Is fine to get 5 on AG and BS both over time? Or better spent on thoughness?



3)

Originally posted by dv:

Meltas are not good.

Why not?



4)

Originally posted by jackx:

Combi-flamers, either the default or the long pattern (with more ammo) are always going to be useful, particularly when faced with air ducts.

Can you please elaborate a bit how do you use the flammer when facing air ducts? I always got rekt in those places.


5) Is BS needed in a heavy, or better use the experience points elsewhere?

6) I made a new topic about it.




Thanks for help

[dv]

@Ronnoe Law
That was exactly the type of answer I hoped for. Thank you very much.

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

With the stock Combi-Plasma, the practical breakdown is this:
My last playthrough my SGT had 5 Agility on Hard.
Including Command AP this breaks down to 1+5+2=8 AP.

That's a Level 8+ Sgt on Hard, right?

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

Paying my 1 maintenance AP and 2 OW AP this leaves me with 5 AP.
5 AP is exactly 5 Plasma shots and bordering Overheating (It actually could explode on the last shot).
Without risking overheat, I can fire 12 shots on OW and 4 shots on my own turn.

With 8 AP you can get 12 shots on OW and 4 shots during your own turn with the bolter and reload twice. So the real benefit of the stock plasma is the ability to shoot five times.

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

In the end I think the Valthek would perform well if you have less than 7 AP on your SGT and the other variant would perform well if you have 10+ AP. However, those values seem pretty impractical to me.

An Apothecary on hard with AG5 has 6 AP. Will try the Valthek on him. And I have one Sergeant with AG 6. Will try the Wrathfire in rogue mode, which gives 2 AP on top of your AG value.

Would you post your full squad? Here's my current playthrough.

Angels of Redemption (hard difficulty):

AG/BS/TS/WS/Perception/Willpower

Command:
- Sgt lvl 10 6/4/4/3/2/2 command vox range/improved photolenses/annihilator or overwatch upgrade or acid proof (rogue mode only)
- Sgt lvl 9 5/5/4/3/2/2 command vox range/improved photolenses/annihilator or overwatch upgrade or acid proof (general purpose); aiming for 5/5/5/3/2/2 at lvl 10
- Apoth lvl 7 5/5/3/3/2/2 improved photolenses/targeting reticules; aiming for 5/5/5/3/2/2
- Librarian lvl 10 5/5/5/2/2/3 targeting reticules/improved photolenses/acid proof

Heavies:
- lvl 10 6/2/5/2/2/2 incinerator/fire proof/battle hero (heavy flamer; mainly rogue mode)
- lvl 10 6/5/2/2/2/2 storm of iron/tergeting reticules/battle hero (assault cannon/mainly rogue mode)
- lvl 8 5/2/5/4/3/2 incinerator/fire proof/auto senses (heavy flamer); aiming for 5/2/5/5/3/2
- lvl 7 5/5/3/3/2/2 storm of iron/tergeting reticules (assault cannon); aiming for 5/5/5/3/2/2

Ranged:
- 2* lvl 10 6/5/2/2/2/2 targeting reticules/improved photolenses/battle hero (rogue mode) or eagle eye; combi-flamer (one per starting squad, also rogue mode/great for avoiding traffic jam out of the deployment zone)
- 2* lvl 10 5/5/3/2/5/2 targeting reticules/improved photolenses/auto-senses; experiments with combi-melta not successful (one per starting squad)

Melee:
- 2* lvl 10 5/5/5/3/2/2 targeting reticules/improved photolenses/battle hero or overwatch upgrade (one per starting squad)
- lvl 10 6/5/2/2/2/2 targeting reticules/improved photolenses/battle hero (rogue mode) (3rd squad and rogue mode)
- 2* lvl 10 5/3/5/5/2/2 targeting reticules/improved photolenses/overwatch upgrade (3rd squad; melee option)


Normal setup is two ranged and one melee with BS5 per squad. One Terminator with perception 5 and auto-senses per squad allows me to choose my position carefully while other squads would not even see the 'stealers. That's one way to avoid melee.

Rogue mode uses AG6 and Battle Hero on everyone plus full teleportation gear.

[dv]

@Valmar
1) Yes it does.

2) On a ranged or Assault Cannon heavy BS5 and AG5 are fine. And on some Sergeants.

3) The range sucks. If you ever get a chance to shoot a broodlord he dies. But that's a big if.

4) Shoot into it. Only possible when standing right in front of it. Most airducts run straight so the long flamer geometry is best.

5) Heavy Flamer does not use BS. So you go with BS 2. Assault Cannon requires BS 5, targeting reticules and storm of iron.

6) Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels have one Librarian. That's all. Salamanders and Space Wolves have two each. But those are weaker for lack of force barrier.

[Valmar]

Awesome, thanks a lot dv. I didnt even know you can fire into air ducts that way! You saved my day :)

[Black Sheep Wall]

	Impossible Difficulty

	Flesh Tearers

UNIT		LOADOUT		SKILLS			ATTRIBUTES	EQUIPMENT

SQUAD 1

Sergeant	Combi-Plasma	Improved Photolenses	WS: 4		Field Generator
		Power Sword	Command Vox Range	BS: 5		Teleporter Unit
				Annihilator		T:  4		Motion Detector
							A:  4
							P:  4
							W:  3

Heavy		Assault Cannon	Storm of Iron		WS: 4
		Chain Fist	Targeting Reticle	BS: 5
				Broodlord Slayer	T:  4
							A:  4
							P:  4
							W:  3

Ranged		Combi-Flamer	Improved Photolenses	WS: 4		Field Generator
		Power Fist	Targeting Reticle	BS: 5		Teleporter Unit
				Overwatch Upgrade	T:  4		Mine Flamer
							A:  4
							P:  4
							W:  3

SQUAD 2

Librarian	Storm Bolter	Improved Photolenses	WS: 5		Prescience
		Force Axe	Targeting Reticle	BS: 4		SoS
				Master of Melee		T:  4		Psychic Storm
							A:  4
							P:  4
							W:  3

Heavy		Heavy Flamer	Incinerator		WS: 4
		Chain Fist	Battle Hero		BS: 4
				Auto-Senses Upgrade	T:  4
							A:  4
							P:  5
							W:  3

Melee		Storm Bolter	Improved Photolenses	WS: 5		Field Generator
		Chain Fist	Targeting Reticle	BS: 4		Teleporter Unit
				Master of Melee		T:  4		Mine Flamer
							A:  4
							P:  4
							W:  3

These squads are set up for flexibility, and I can make swaps to certain things if I feel like it.
I wanted my melee squad to pack a bit more punch in actual melee so I swapped out an Agility on everyone from my last playthrough and put it in their relevant specialization, BS or WS.

The Sergeant Squad is pretty well locked in, there aren't many changes that would do much, but I could swap out Annihilator/Command Vox for more dakka if I wanted to. I would never run Combi-Meltas. I do find Broodlord Slayer to be amazing on the Assault Cannon though, for those pesky packs of 3+ Broodlords that like to show up. I just need to make sure I post up this squad correctly so I can uncover/recover him as neccissary. This squad runs 4 teleporters and PFGs, so if vent blocking or bridge hopping is a priority, they are pretty good at it.

The Librarian Squad is more flexible. I can push LCs or THs if I am feeling really chipper, but usually run Chain Fists so I have a gun as well. This squad is my close in, blood and guts squad used to push forward through to the objective while my ranged squad covers our flank. In a single squad mission, I can usually push forward and leave mines to cover my rear, or just Psychic Storm/Flamer to keep the rear covered. Odds of winning Melee are pretty good with SoS, but that's always a last resort. Force Barrier is excellent, but I find myself not even using it late game. Also, the Heavy is the stand in "Sergeant" for this squad, so his kit might look weird, but works fine for me. It's nice having Command Vox in a split squad/single squad scenario.

@dv, you might want to consider some more perception on your shooters.
While in overwatch, they only shoot at what is in their own perception radius.
It's somewhat situational, as it will only come up when Overwatching a long hallway, but I've had good results with 4. Obviously, this is meaningless in tight corridors where you only have 2 squares of standoff anyway. Either that or make sure your Motion Tracker/Auto Senses are on your best shooters.

[jackx]

I try to cap myself at 4 base AP for my terminators, which however, is somewhat unsatisfactory with regard to rogue mode (i.e. normal dificulty, with +1 AP), given that Agility 2 simply doesn't cut it on impossible campaigns.

All I have on this computer at the moment is a 3-squad Salamanders campaign in (sporadic) progress, with 2 Librarians, and the Sgts squad only deployed for signle-squad missions, and the additional restriction of not using variants and not opening chests during flash missions.

After playing Space Hulk: Deathwing, I'd actually like to give the Deathwing or the Angels of Redemption another try, but that'd involve a lot of re-rolling and stat checking just to avoid Agility 4 at lvl 1 for 2 squads.

[Black Sheep Wall]

I was disappointed with Deathwing but it does make me want to run a DA playthrough.
I just can't figure out the squad setup I want to use.
I don't like DA Librarians at all.
I'd probably end up running 3 Plasmas, but I really don't like the Apothocary either.

[dv]

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

@dv, you might want to consider some more perception on your shooters.

There's one guy with perception 5 and auto-senses in each squad. And motion scanner, obviously.

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

While in overwatch, they only shoot at what is in their own perception radius.

Didn't notice that so far.

I think Terminators shoot OW at what a servo skull sees, even if outside their own perception range.

But yes, I use motion scanners extensively. Perception 2 with motion scanner is the same as perception 4 with auto-senses.

I do wonder about your setup with perception 4 and willpwer 3 on everybody. Seems like a waste of two level-ups, at least on the heavy Terminators. They don't overwatch and have no motion scanner. They will hardly ever extend the squad's perception range. Care to explain?

Originally posted by Ronnie Law:

I was disappointed with Deathwing but it does make me want to run a DA playthrough.
I just can't figure out the squad setup I want to use.
I don't like DA Librarians at all.
I'd probably end up running 3 Plasmas, but I really don't like the Apothocary either.

Kill everyone who starts with 3/3/3/2/2/2 stats. Only keep those with AG 4. It's like having one extra level. Don't want to spend it on TS, though. Because then one would better use Imperial Fists. Their chapter bonus equals two points of TS, which easily outshines the DA bonus. So I spend the extra points on something other than melee.

Level 10 DA Terminators can have the following stats:

5/4/4/4/4/4
5/5/4/4/3/3
5/5/5/3/2/2
6/5/2/2/2/2

Willpower is useless on anyone but the Librarian. So the first two stat lines seem like a waste of ability points to me.

The DA Librarian is not bad. 2nd only to the BA Librarian. Slightly better than the Ultramarines Librarian. Because targets killed with the area effect power burst into flames which block movement.

The Apothecary requires a slightly different playstyle. He can use his power only so many times. But the effect is much better than, say, prescience. Reserve it for key moments during a mission. The lack of melee weapons makes him a bit fragile.

[Black Sheep Wall]

I don't mess with trying to get perfectly rolled statlines.
I just can't stand it.

With the setups I use, it's practically impossible to get a perfectly rolled set of two squads with 2/2 W/P. I don't mess with getting my dudes killed, my playthroughs are always 0 casualties.

That said, I find 4 BS/WS/T/A/P is a good statline, every single stat is useful.
This leaves a level 10 terminator with a 5 in one stat of choice and 2 points leftover and you can ONLY raise W at that point. For a non-DA playthrough a different statline would REQUIRE a perfectly rolled 2/2 W/P, and again, I'm not going to mess with that. Also, I don't think I'd run a 2 P Terminator because then I'd probably have to run different equipment. Teleporter/PFG/Flamer mines are just amazing at spawn control or creating standoff.

As for the use of P4 on everyone, it's great when your squads are spead out, either for vent lockdown or to create crossfire. I pretty much never find myself unable to deal with large spawns, so long as I know where it's at. Having a full turn to re-orient is more than enough of a boon to give up an additional 5 or 6 on the statline.

As far as Librarians, I guess my BA Librarian spoils me.
The ability to run FB, Prescience and Psy Storm is just amazing.
The additional Psi is pretty amazing too, as I don't have to post up often so he can recharge.

Again, the above setup is meant to be flexible.
I find that flexibility makes up for any lack of min/max.
Granted this means I really need to control my positioning in mission, but that's where the meat and potatoes is anyway, and as long as I'm paying attention and doing proper risk assessment, I don't have any problems, even when it wants to rain Broodlords on me.