Balance

[Some Old Gamer]

Just played a match against Soviet AI... Wow the balance has changed. Now the facts. During WW2, Russia lost about 24 Million troops compared to the US's 420,000 casualties, and Great Brittan's 450,000 casualties. 1 pair of (2) Conscripts were handed a rifle and a stripper clip of extra ammo, if they tried to retreat, they were mowed down by their own men, which brings me to my point. How the ♥♥♥♥ do Soviet conscripts have a rocket launcher to attack light armor on them?? Also, how the ♥♥♥♥ does two groups of 7 men, 14 men total, with 7 Mosin Nagant 7.62 x 54r blot action rifle take out a light armored vehicle? You boys need to rethink balance big time. I own a Mosin nagant, so don't try to tell me it can shoot through armor, it can go through a big pine tree for sure, but not 1/4 inch steel plating, i've tried

[Some Old Gamer]

k, just busted out a quick match, forgot about that field gun and the mortars too, combined with all those conscripts, they're pretty difficult to stop too. Basically Russia is like Super America. 1 volks squad with a pioneer operating the sdkfz halftrack vs 2 conscripts... the exact scenario i've been talking about since the first post, i lose my halftrack and have to retreat my volks and pioneers if i take them on at the same time once the enemy has enough munitions to use whatever that rocket attack is, super fast rifle grenade, whatever, the two hits to it do enough damage to where i can't even repair it if i have a second pioneer squad in the halftrack, this is after my mp40 upgrade.

The problem i see is all the changes to vanilla. Why not just balance the army you guys created to fit into the game as it is??

[Some Old Gamer]

the wher's best offensive strategy early on is sdkfz halftrack with a volks squad or two. it's mobile death. in this mod that strategy is not effective. in addition, the onslaught from Russia is a bit much combined with literally the most powerful longest range mortar and probably the longest range field gun too. Blitzkreig doesn't work man, that's broken.

[Æ | Darc Reaver]

The best approach to deal with Soviets is to use 1 pio opening, volks mg volks and then either another mg or another volks. The MG insta supresses conscripts and 2 volks will focus down conscripts. If the enemy tries to flank they lack almost all their damage. If the enemy has full rifles another mg is required to keep them at bay. If you're good with vehicle micro bikes/schwimmwagens also deal good damage to conscripts.

Later on grenadiers are more effective than volks or halftracks. If you want AI power use a Puma, it also deals well with conscripts. And if you have issues with keeping oyur light vehicles alive get vehicle veterancy, it helps alot.

[Some Old Gamer]

whoa, hold up, i've been playing since 2006, back when MG's actually did damage before the suppression only nerf. I'm not saying I cannot defeat the russian army, only that it's OP in many ways. 2 conscripts vs 1 volks in a SDKFZ with a pioneer operating the MG should be death to 14 conscripts with 7 bolt action rifles, not death to 5 volks armed with mp40's which were used as assualt rifles prior to the invention of the STG-44 or the MP-44, the father of Russia's iconic AK-47.

[Æ | Darc Reaver]

Originally posted by Some Old Gamer:

whoa, hold up, i've been playing since 2006, back when MG's actually did damage before the suppression only nerf. I'm not saying I cannot defeat the russian army, only that it's OP in many ways. 2 conscripts vs 1 volks in a SDKFZ with a pioneer operating the MG should be death to 14 conscripts with 7 bolt action rifles, not death to 5 volks armed with mp40's which were used as assualt rifles prior to the invention of the STG-44 or the MP-44, the father of Russia's iconic AK-47.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've played the release version of vCoH aswell via gameranger in multiplayer, around 80 or maybe even over 100 matches with different persons from that community (edit: that means unpatched 1.00 high resource annihilition matches). Regular CoH online with ranked quickmatch since I got my copy when patch 1.3 was released (the patch that removed the Main gun from the Calliope) and constantly played ranked games on a relatively high level (1v1 level 11-12 on old servers with Wehr and 10-11 with USA) until I stopped active laddering in 2015.
There never was a time when MG weapons killed much more units (like, let's say they do in NCH or BK mod) after the initial release compared to now. Mgs were in fact even worse than they are now, because :

1) MGs didn't have an incremental accuracy value before the release of Opposing Fronts. This is a modifier that gives MG weapons a higher chance to shoot down infantry units when they are in a blob of other units. The more units the higher the modifier.
2) Tank Top-MG gunners had MUCH worse supression, accuracy and RoF which was fixed with 2.501 (or alternatively 2.301, but I'm pretty sure it was the post-ToV patch 2.501)
3) Axis infantry was a lot better due to medic bunkers being OP until post 2.301
4) support weapon veterancy costed the same amount of resources than regular Tank/Infantry vet (100mp/30f-300mp/50f and 300mp/70f) / for USA vet requirements were higher, was pretty much impossible to get veterancy at all
5) mgs didn't relocate their firing direction when they locked onto a target which made flanking much easier than it is now.

There are only [s]3[/s]edit 4 instances when MG weapons killed other units instead of supressing them:
- when the MG weapon gained some sort of accuracy bonus, i.e. from Wehr veterancy 1 or multiple levels of PE offensive vet, same with halftracks and vet bonus. i.e. vet 3 Wehr HT gets +20% damage on its main weapons, that also affects the front/rear MG
- it is a special campaign weapon with different weapon stats
- it is a US MG team and someone moves his units into close range and forces the unit to hold fire. Due to the US mg having better damage/accuracy but worse suppression it's likely it kills a couple of squad members before supressing them if at all.
edit: one more reason:
- it's a conscript squad that takes additional damage/supression/accuracy from heavy MGs, turret and side MGs. Get a vet 1 mg42 and you can see pretty green numbers all over the place where Conscripts were a second ago


And for once again, Conscripts are meant to be used as a static defense, just like Volks. Everything they have is directed towards that:
- Their Mosin Nagant has a bolt-action rifle design just like the Kar98/Lee Enfield rifles with similar weapon characteristics, which means that they constant damage output over all ranges (but ofc. worse damage and accuracy), unlike a weapon like the G43 or M1 Garand that shoots a lot faster in close range
- their veterancy gives them less received damage while in cover, and reduced reinforcement costs
- their moving accuracy is 20% compared to other infantry units 50% (or PE with 75%)

If you charge infantry into conscripts standing still in cover you're maximising the damage they can do to your troops. And if you use unvetted Volksgrenadiers to charge into infantry you deserve to be slaugthered.
There NEVER was a reason to do that, because no matter which patch, they always had 20% moving accuracy on their MP40. A MP 44 from Stormtroopers/Knights Cross has 75% on the move, along with much higher accuracy (90/30/10%) and Damage (7) compared to 75%/45/10% and 5 damage for volks.

There are ofc. times where repositioning the Volks to get into medium can justify a short sprint somewhere, but in general they're a defensive tool to be used stationary to fight off Riflemen. Only exception can be things like FTFL. The reason why Volksspam with mp40 was a thing were the reduced reinforcement/upkeep costs on Volks that gave them better long term manpower efficiency than Riflemen, which was largely imbalanced by the fact that 4-5 Riflemen Airborne Strafing Run doctrine meta was a thing back then, since Wehr T4 was too expensive and situational and Airborne Rangers countered Wehr T3 so well while Strafing Runs massacred T2 strategies.

Upgraded Conscripts perform slightly better than an unvetted, unupgraded Landser squad (which is very similar to a Volks squad). Soviets earlygame work like Wehr. And you wouldn't charge into a defensive line of MG 42 teams, bunkers and Volks with Panzerfausts either, wouldn't you? Because this is pretty much what you're trying to do.

[Some Old Gamer]

Dude, get a CDROM copy of the game, it's the release version and yes it does damage. I always build a campcraft center as soon as I establish a front line, so maybe that's why i notice the damage so much. My original strategy when the first game came out was MG, MG, MG in buildings till they took the damage away, they were a great tool.

To repeat myself again, no matter what squad MG damage is or was, it's not the MG42 on the front of the SDKFZ halftrack that I've been referring to that suppresses and damages other troops, it doesn't seem to be effective in your mod. You already told me you nerfed Volks squads because "MP40 is supposed to be for defense not used as an assault rifle, that's what MP44 is for" because in reality it was used offensively, it's why Hitler ordered a newer version and why the STG 44 is also called the MP 44, the name MP44 was used to please Hitler.

By the way, every single player in this game has no idea what values are going on behind the scenes, we can only comment on what the outcome is of the effectiveness of a squad, and I see that both PE and Wher are weaker in this mod than they are in vCOH, you've said so yourself. I can only assume you feel having the last comment means you've won somehow. My opinion of your group has steadily declined with each comment you've posted as you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

[Æ | Darc Reaver]

Originally posted by Some Old Gamer:

Dude, get a CDROM copy of the game, it's the release version and yes it does damage. I always build a campcraft center as soon as I establish a front line, so maybe that's why i notice the damage so much. My original strategy when the first game came out was MG, MG, MG in buildings till they took the damage away, they were a great tool.

I have the steel case CD version of CoH 1.00 and just reinstalled the game. I checked the MG42 and it behaves exactly as it does now. The only thing I COULD imagine you're referring to is the squad damage system that was changed with the Opposing Fronts release. After 2.100 (PE and Brit release) the individual squad members randomly target other soldiers which lowers the chance that a squad member is killed, and instead just takes damage. This sometimes leads to very low health squads that can be fully healed, which happened very rarely in the very old CoH builds because wounded squad soldiers would die faster. However, Opposing fronts was released back in 2007, so rougly 12 years ago.

To repeat myself again, no matter what squad MG damage is or was, it's not the MG42 on the front of the SDKFZ halftrack that I've been referring to that suppresses and damages other troops, it doesn't seem to be effective in your mod.

And I've told you numerous times that both the front and rear MG42 weapon was not changed in EF and is 100% the same as in vCoH. So it's just as bad or good as in vCoH.

You already told me you nerfed Volks squads because "MP40 is supposed to be for defense not used as an assault rifle, that's what MP44 is for"

https://companyofheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Volksgrenadier_Squad

"In the Mid-game and later, Volksgrenadiers should become much more of a supporting unit. If they see combat at all, it should never be alone. At this point, their only real combat use is some extra strength supporting a better Infantry unit, or as a supporting unit for a tank. If there are any Volks left on the field at this point, however, they're much better suited for capturing and crewing than anything else. "

" MP40s are great for close combat, but they receive the games harshest penalties for firing on the move (0.2 accuracy vs. 0.5 for most others).
Volksgrenadiers are very cheap to reinforce, making it the best unit to feed your Medic Bunkers, but this will give US units lots of easy veterancy if you're not careful. Build sandbags!
If the Blitzkrieg Doctrine is chosen and you pick Assault Grenades, Volksgrenadiers will unleash prodigious volleys of grenades, due to their high squad numbers. "

This is by design from the original CoH makers, not me. A weapon that only deals 20% of its possible damage on the move is not an assault rifle. Of course it deals good damage if you can get into close range, but the design of the weapon make them more useful if you use them from cover to support an MG 42, which is why the upgrade is unlocked so early in the game.
It doesn't matter for the game if the mp40 was used was used as an assault rifle in reality. In reality the m3 grease gun that US Engineers are equipped with was just as deadly as the MP40. But ingame it deals very low damage because it's on a basic builder unit and those builder units are not meant to be terminators that massacre enemy infantry in close range.

Units in CoH are designed with a role in mind that they are meant to cover and the game is mainly focused on rifle combat instead of SMG combat.

There's a reason why Volks can build sandbags and barbed wire by default - both are used to create cover and to create kill zones for the mg42/against flanks from Riflemen while the Riflemen cannot do that.

The same reason is why Riflemen have M1 Garand rifles that shoot almost 2 times faster on close range than on long range, because they're meant to flank and attack the axis in the earlygame.
And the MP40 is meant to be used against charging enemy units from cover, since it deals much higher damage while the Volksgrenadier is standing still, 80% damage difference to be precise.

Wehrmacht always was designed to be the defensive part until the midgame, while the USA has the initiative and needs to attack the axis player.. That's why Wehr t1 has scout units (bike/sniper) to search for flanking allied infantry, a squad that deals consistent damage on all ranges and a heavy mg that supresses charging infantry. While USA only has a scout unit to find out where the german units are and Riflemen who get weapons against these "fortifications" (grenades, BAR light machine guns).

because in reality it was used offensively, it's why Hitler ordered a newer version and why the STG 44 is also called the MP 44, the name MP44 was used to please Hitler.

In case you didn't notice, the game's assets, be it M10 tanks, mp40 machine guns, Panzer IVs, Grenadiers, Halftracks or Artillery are only realistic from their looks. The game itself is abstracted to mix realtime strategy and realtime tactics in a very popular WW2 scenario together to form a game that is easier to handle than a Sudden Strike but requires more strategic thinking than the average command & conquer game. Which they did relatively well.

By the way, every single player in this game has no idea what values are going on behind the scenes, we can only comment on what the outcome is of the effectiveness of a squad, and I see that both PE and Wher are weaker in this mod than they are in vCOH, you've said so yourself. I can only assume you feel having the last comment means you've won somehow. My opinion of your group has steadily declined with each comment you've posted as you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

Which is just a random assumption from your side. There are quite a few players who know what the difference between weapon cooldown and reload is, how supression and rate of fire work or how penetration and target tables work. Just because you couldn't figure it out in 10 years doesn't mean someone else did.

oh and pretty much all relevant stats from coh can be found here:
http://hq-coh.com/stats/coh-stats.com/Main_Page.html
The site isn't updated anymore, but still contains the game data from 2.602, which is the base of retail CoH. You can use that site to compare the changelogs to them. Have fun.

[Digdux]

IRC OP, conscripts are trash if they're not in cover, and if you're running halftrack as pe, then you just roll through/round their cover if there's one set or instagib two sets with an incendiary round. Same way you knock volks off capping points with jeeps. Rifle chip only matters if you aren't on top of them, where mgs shred through conscripts. Or use the anti-building grens to force them to move where they're useless. The "anti-armor" they have is on a massive cooldown compared to other similar tools, so if there's one, you dive on them, and if there's two you just go around them or chip them out, their defense vs suppression is ass so they can't leave cover if you have an mg anywhere near them. Even the garbage mg34s are enough for that.

Flamerhalftrack with pio support ruins soviets conscript spam, as wehr. Bring in an mg to slow one side, clear/cap the other. If they start blobbing to deal with the track, then just buy a spare mg, or use morter to keep the conscripts from capping and go cap the other side of the map.

Transition into a single pair of shreks to keep their light armor off your halftrack and start popping outposts, then just out cap them with kettles and chip them out. Or just rush for P4 as PE, and dumpster the ai that way.

The only matchup I would say is soviet favored at a level that isn't new player tier, is vs Othseer, since they can fairly easily deny vet with mine and sniper play, screening with conscripts, and then cap around Othseer to deny resources. The soviet Urban doctrine hard counters Othseer quite hard, since forcing a minesweeper on their pios makes them one less unit to deal with, while mines and snipers are very good at denying their basic infantry from taking points, no matter how insane their capping speed gets.

I've been messing with using conscripts to bodyblock and plant mines, and save the munitions from upgrading them for.... more mines.

Best faction is probably still US, especially since there's an easier transition into late game, but PE has the vampire halftrack of fog of war visibility which is BUSTED so it's really a toss up there.

For new players soviets is best faction because conscripts are very, very, good vs bad players.

[Some Old Gamer]

So basically when someone criticizes your mod, you copy and paste information you have and argue every little thing rather than be positive. MG's did damage, I don't care what you say. Clearly you speak out of both sides of your mouth "We buffed troops" then proceed to tell me how you both buffed and nerfed them... My opinion will never change, no matter how many times you copy and paste the same comments from likely the exact same argument you've heard before.

Most people in your position would have a very basic comment ready for people who criticize them like "Thanks for your opinion, we'll look into that :)" instead of arguing like a petulant child who can't handle an OPINION. I BELIEVE YOUR RUSSIAN ARMY IS OP, AND I KNOW YOU NERFED TROOPS, DID YOU GET ALL THAT THIS TIME??

[Æ | Darc Reaver]

Originally posted by Some Old Gamer:

Clearly you speak out of both sides of your mouth "We buffed troops" then proceed to tell me how you both buffed and nerfed them... My opinion will never change, no matter how many times you copy and paste the same comments from likely the exact same argument you've heard before.

instead of arguing like a petulant child who can't handle an OPINION. I BELIEVE YOUR RUSSIAN ARMY IS OP, AND I KNOW YOU NERFED TROOPS, DID YOU GET ALL THAT THIS TIME??

Alright, let's summarize:

- You state that PE vehicles are weaker than in vCoH, which is not true
- you state that Wehr Halftrack MG weapons have been changed, which isn't true either
- you state that the MG 42 used to kill instead of supressing infantry in 1.00 CoH, which is not true
- you state some historical informations which are not true either and/or are not relevant for the game context at all
- you complain about "hidden changes" in the mod and allege me to lie to you
- you refuse to take any advice for whatever reason

So basically when someone criticizes your mod, you copy and paste information you have and argue every little thing rather than be positive.

All I did was provide you information you can use to improve your strategy when fighting soviets and CoH gameplay basics in general. Along with changelogs and information what is different in Eastern Front.

Digidux gave you similar input and advice aswell.

In short these were:

- do not use MP40 on the move unless it's absolutely necessary
- do not charge into multiple full rifle Conscript squads that are in good cover with light infantry (like Volks)
- do not use vehicles in close range against multiple Conscripts
- use Heavy MG42 against Soviets

Instead of taking the advice you choose to ignore everything and instead dig out another topic or pull out random insults.

Most people in your position would have a very basic comment ready for people who criticize them like "Thanks for your opinion, we'll look into that :)"

Opposed to "most people in my position" I have played the game a couple thousand games as a regular community member in 1v1 and 2v2 for a very long time, and so I not only have an opinion as a developer of Eastern Front but as a seasoned CoH veteran player, too.

MG's did damage, I don't care what you say.

Every weapon does damage, the question is how much. And for a fact MG 42 mainly supress enemy units unless you have invested in support unit veterancy. But I've said that multiple times already.

All I know is that I have the steel case collectors Release edition and reinstalled it yesterday to verify that it works just like it does in the steam version. I invite you to play some games via gameranger, 1.00 is still supported.

[Some Old Gamer]

i hope all these replies don't take too much of your time, i stopped reading them when i decided you just wanted to argue

[ivsh84]

Wow, Darc is awesome.

Originally posted by Some Old Gamer:

...don't care what you say... My opinion will never change... ... instead of arguing like a petulant child who can't handle an OPINION.

Maybe it's an example from psychologically overprotected generation, where "i have an opinion" is so important, that others shouldn't mess with facts or arguments.

"conscripts are trash if they're not in cover", yes. wehr mg + motorcycle + sniper could be a real pain if microed well, (at least now soviet sniper is 1 sec faster in reloading and could be a bit of help, coz soviets have no early jeep-like tool). Overall early cons blob loses vs concentrated fire from more mobile landser blob, suffering incomparable mp and reinforcing time loss.Ostheer grenls deals real damage to conscripts in cover or\and in blobs, mortar or otheer mortar halftrack can kill cons squad almost in oneshot. I try to support cons with MG against landser early blob, but attacks from different sides (to get close fast) or kubel on a good (non-VPGS) distance is also a real pain (or 2 kubels vs cons early).

[Some Old Gamer]

Originally posted by ivsh84:

Wow, Darc is awesome.

Originally posted by Some Old Gamer:

...don't care what you say... My opinion will never change... ... instead of arguing like a petulant child who can't handle an OPINION.

Maybe it's an example from psychologically overprotected generation, where "i have an opinion" is so important, that others shouldn't mess with facts or arguments.

I don't know who you are, but I can tell you the argument you're making has nothing to do with what I said originally or what I shared. I'm 40, don't need to be overprotected. This guy Dark Reaver is just an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, that's it and I'm sharing my opinion with him. Facts have nothing to do with how I feel the army performs because i have my own play style so you guys can go pound salt. Also, this man flat out said he nerfed troops so i'm right. Volks shows a +2 equipped with MP40 instead of +5. This is a Russian wet dream.

I've seen other posts where people say the same thing, so I'm not alone either. Go on with your bad self

[Some Old Gamer]

Dark Reaver are you Russian?

[Some Old Gamer]

PE army is so garbage i haven't played it in a long time, but last time I played it, I was only able to put 1 squad in the infantry halftrack, effectively making it twice as expensive to cart two squads around the map. Nerfing a mobile army's mobility, priceless.