[Spoilers][Discussion] The Sigil is Sentient?

[ABlindGuyPlays]

The game and doom wiki repeatedly call the Sigil sentient, yet in game the only thing that might be a hint at this is the Entity referencing possessing the player.

What gives here? Going off another poster's theory did the Entity not exist until just before it spawned and we created it by having the full sigil? That seems possible since it hatches and speaks as if it had been acting even though it was stuck behind a locked door in an egg like structure.

We don't know, and unless story designers speak up, or kaiser/quasar make a ruling since they've taken over development, we won't know.

I mean is there any way in game the sigil could have been 'speaking' to us or otherwise being more than a life sucking engine of destruction?

[Fishytza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh MarrikBroom:

I mean is there any way in game the sigil could have been 'speaking' to us or otherwise being more than a life sucking engine of destruction?

It probably only 'speaks' to those who are infected by the virus and/or are possessed by a spectre. Since the protagonist doesn't appear to be infected, of course the Sigil wasn't speaking to us.

Diposting pertama kali oleh MarrikBroom:

We don't know, and unless story designers speak up, or kaiser/quasar make a ruling since they've taken over development, we won't know.

At this point, I doubt they'll answer. Either because they don't know or they don't want to tell us.

Diposting pertama kali oleh MarrikBroom:

That seems possible since it hatches and speaks as if it had been acting even though it was stuck behind a locked door in an egg like structure.

One way to explain why the Entity acts as if it was active and aware of everything the whole time is that the Entity and the spectres probably share a hive mind of sorts.

Consider this, when the Bishop speaks and when the Oracle speaks to you after you've killed the Loremaster, notice how the Entity's voice can be heard along with their 'normal' voices.

To me this suggests that the Entity's somehow aware of what's happening to the spectres and their hosts.
But why are they attacking eachother if they have a hive mind, you ask? Well, like I said they probably have this desire to merge with one another which to their hosts translates as "must kill the others, must complete the Sigil".

(I can't explain it better than that, sorry.)

Quick edit: It also explains why some of the hosts refer to themselves as the "One God". Like in Macil's rant and when the Bishop says "I am more than human." Which, if I remember correctly comes from an ancient saying which goes something like "to be less than human is to be a beast, while to be more than human is to be a god". But maybe I'm just pulling things out of my ass. :P

[ABlindGuyPlays]

At this point that's all we have. The hivemind thing works. Another theory is they grow stronger the fewer there are. Sorta like how highlander immortals work.

Ultimate mindscrew. Blackbird is the Sigil's voice. First we hear it because it's transmitting from Macil. Then we hear it because we are gathering pieces. The snarl here is while that works for the 'meh' ending the happy humanity survives end blackbird seems to go against that. If that could be reconciled the physical appearance could be explained away as hallucination.

It would explain her... Enthusiastic attitude to killing things.

[Fishytza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh MarrikBroom:

If that could be reconciled the physical appearance could be explained away as hallucination.

You know, I've always found it odd how she apparently arrives quickly into the Entity's ship shortly after you kill it. Like she's been right behind you just a few minutes ago.

Also, in the best ending, the first pic[imgur.com] of Blackbird that you see (shortly after Richter's "Blackbird do you read me") shows her coming at you with open arms and somehow glowing green. I've always wondered if that was a mistake as that pic seems more appropriate for the 'meh' ending IMO.

When I see that pic, I Imagine having to fight her. And after destroying her mortal form, the Entity emerges. :P

[ABlindGuyPlays]

Well I'd figure she teleported in using the same thing the becones use to teleport idiots in as short lived bullet sponges.

She has a ready excuse why nobody sees her. Stuck underground so the order doesn't murder her.

Once fought through and I guess somehow triggered a bug that let me get into the conversion chapel and talk to Richter so I had the bad end blackbird is entity speech pre fight, but the good end when I won.

The entity's final gambit. Trojan love interest.

[Kenshiro3]

Diposting pertama kali oleh MarrikBroom:

At this point that's all we have. The hivemind thing works. Another theory is they grow stronger the fewer there are. Sorta like how highlander immortals work.

Ultimate mindscrew. Blackbird is the Sigil's voice. First we hear it because it's transmitting from Macil. Then we hear it because we are gathering pieces. The snarl here is while that works for the 'meh' ending the happy humanity survives end blackbird seems to go against that. If that could be reconciled the physical appearance could be explained away as hallucination.

It would explain her... Enthusiastic attitude to killing things.

Blackbird was the original host for it & source of the virus. Killing it with the Sigil freed her from it. Basically she was the thing in the pedestal holding the egg.

The entity was an otherworldly/dimensional energy based parasitic being manifesting itself through a in the form of a sentient virus devouring all life. Ever seen the movie Lifeforce or read the book it's based on? It had something similar.

The Sigil was basically it's link to & conduit for its power on the physical plain. As such it is a double edged sword for it. It's basically the entity's greatest strength as well as its weakness. As the conduit for it's power it was the only thing capable of hurting it.

As for why everyone with a piece of the Sigil was fighting each other for it even though they were all controlled by the entity... It's pretty obvious. Divide and conquer. Essentially it was playing all sides to the middle. Basically those beings were independent pawns being manipulated by it in order to gather all the sigil's pieces for it and bring the source of its power and weakness back under its control.

Oh and yes the Entity DID speak to the player. You guys forget what it said before the battle? As for why it didn't speak sooner... I'm pretty sure it was manipulating & influencing Blackbird's advice.

At least that was my interpretation.

[Fishytza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kenshiro3:

Blackbird was the original host for it & source of the virus. Killing it with the Sigil freed her from it. Basically she was the thing in the pedestal holding the egg.

So she was held captive the whole time? Then how did she get a hold of a comm link? How did she not lose her mind? When was she captured?
I know that would explain the creepy green-glowing-Blackbird image, but still.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kenshiro3:

Oh and yes the Entity DID speak to the player. You guys forget what it said before the battle?

We were talking about if the Sigil itself was 'speaking' in any way, not the Entity.

[Kenshiro3]

Diposting pertama kali oleh EmanEliforp:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kenshiro3:

Blackbird was the original host for it & source of the virus. Killing it with the Sigil freed her from it. Basically she was the thing in the pedestal holding the egg.

So she was held captive the whole time? Then how did she get a hold of a comm link? How did she not lose her mind? When was she captured?
I know that would explain the creepy green-glowing-Blackbird image, but still.

1. Right after or before the UFO/comet crashed.
2. She didn't need one. She was hooked up to the UFO and it's systems.
3. Short answer IDK/Who Knows. Long answer. As the test case/factory perhaps they needed her sane to properly test and adapt the virus to the human psyche? Or perhaps since she was already captured & imprisoned with no chance of escape perhaps they/it felt there was no need. Or perhaps she was just an asymptomatic carrier?

Diposting pertama kali oleh EmanEliforp:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kenshiro3:

Oh and yes the Entity DID speak to the player. You guys forget what it said before the battle?

We were talking about if the Sigil itself was 'speaking' in any way, not the Entity.

The Sigil itself doesn't speak... The entity does. Basically the specters are pieces of the entity itself. The conduit was just its vessel/conduit. Since all the piece had already posesses others there was no piece left to posess the MC.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

My original reason for post in was the weapon is referred to as sentient. Yet it doesn't speak or otherwise act on its own. It is also described as having world shaking power, and sure it is a powerful weapon, but y aren't going to be able to one man army a non-braindead force that attacks in waves and hits hard.

It just puzzled me the this is oversold and under performs. There was story potential lost in exploring the idea of it taking you over, or offering advice to compliment or counter blackbird's.

[Fishytza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Kenshiro3:

As the test case/factory perhaps they needed her sane to properly test and adapt the virus to the human psyche? Or perhaps since she was already captured & imprisoned with no chance of escape perhaps they/it felt there was no need. Or perhaps she was just an asymptomatic carrier?

I'm not talking about her going nuts because of the virus, but because of her being captive, being forced immobile while holding the egg (like you've said) and surrounded by those constant, never ending alien noises.

Then there are her basic biological needs. How was she fed? With what? If she was forced to hold the egg then how did she dispose of her wastes (urine and feces)?
All these conditions would understandably drive anyone mad, don't you think? Espacially if her captivity lasted from when the comet crashed to when the Entity's killed.

Also, if she was really held captive, why doesn't she appear to be abused at all? She seems perfectly clean and still has her clothes on. Seems kind of odd for the Entity to keep her in pristine condition IMO.

Diposting pertama kali oleh MarrikBroom:

It is also described as having world shaking power, and sure it is a powerful weapon, but y aren't going to be able to one man army a non-braindead force that attacks in waves and hits hard.

It just puzzled me the this is oversold and under performs.

I've always interpreted that as Macil over-glorifying the Sigil because to him it's more than just a weapon, it's more than just a key into the Entity's ship.
To Macil, who's spectre-possessed and who's thinking is warped, the Sigil is the path to godhood.

I don't think it's reasonable to trust that nutter's every single word IMO.

Back to the Sigil being sentient, Macil calls it an "intelligent weapon" and the Oracle calls it "the voice of the One God".
Again, the only way I imagine you could hear the Sigil 'speaking' and conclude it is sentient/intelligent is if you're infected and/or spectre-possessed.

In other words, I don't think the Sigil is (objectively speaking) sentient in any way beyond it somehow being capable to tune itself to whoever touches it.

[ABlindGuyPlays]

Makes for one hell of an anti theft device. Pity we don't see what happens when non-sigil holder tries using sigil while actual owner still lives. Probably nothing healthy.

Also macil claims his information is from the Programmer's records, so even if Macil isn't personally off the rails yet the information is still.... Biased.

[Xfing]

I think the Sigil was sentient, but the sentience that was spoken of were the Spectres. Once the Spectres were killed, the sentience stopped and it became just a weapon.

The Entity crash landed on the game world after being shot into space in its spaceship (or so we've learned in the expanded edition), but it remained imprisoned. It could however release the virus in order to communicate with people and twist them to its will (just like it says during the final confrontation). I have no idea whether it created the Sigil itself - if it did, why would it remain imprisoned in its spaceship?

I think the Sigil was created by its captors - the ancient race. The Entity's only shot at freedom was to reunite the Sigil and have someone use it on the spaceship to set it free. I think the spectres were coalescences of sorts that formed over time in the Order's generals and started controlling and driving them (either that or they formed first and possessed those guys later).

The reason why the Entity wasn't set free anyway was because every of the Order's general had their own influence, power and loyal servants, and also every one of them thought they were to be the one to reassemble the Sigil. It was perhaps a sort of insurance on the Entity's part, but it backfired seeing how all 5 of the generals were in a stalemate basically, and none dared move against the others.

So during that time the Entity was content with just the actions of the Order - providing it with women and children to feed on, waiting for the day of its release.

[Fishytza]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Xfing:

I think the Sigil was created by its captors - the ancient race.

If that's really the case then I find it strange how the Sigil mimicks the Entity's powers (the lightning attacks). Then again, many things don't make much sense plotwise *sigh*.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Xfing:

I think the spectres were coalescences of sorts that formed over time in the Order's generals and started controlling and driving them (either that or they formed first and possessed those guys later).

After thinking about it, the later would make more sense (first the spectres formed, then they possessed the generals/leaders).
Consider the fact that the Programmer doesn't have a spectre when we encounter him. It is possible that the Catacombs spectre was indeed intended for the Programmer, but by the time the spectre decided to move in and possess him, it was too late, because of the Front's interference, obviously.
(In other words, rather than having possessed the Programmer from the start and then somehow get "forced out", the spectre simply didn't get the chance to possess him in the first place.)

Diposting pertama kali oleh Xfing:

The reason why the Entity wasn't set free anyway was because every of the Order's general had their own influence, power and loyal servants, and also every one of them thought they were to be the one to reassemble the Sigil. It was perhaps a sort of insurance on the Entity's part, but it backfired seeing how all 5 of the generals were in a stalemate basically, and none dared move against the others.

I wouldn't exactly say all 5 were unwilling to move against the others, considering Macil using his Front to conduct attacks and the Oracle sending you personally to kill the other Sigil holders.

It makes me wonder, rather than there being some status quo in place, what if the Order's troops are unable to attack each other because of how they're programmed? (I'm talking about the plot, not the game engine.)

It would explain why there's no open conflict between them (eg. the Loremaster's inquisitors assaulting the Bishop's Fortress) and why the Oracle has to rely on you to kill the others.

[ImmoranWarrior]

In my Opinion, the Sigil is called "Sentient" because The Order, when doing stuff with it recieved orders from the Entity, giving the illusion that it is the Sigil speaking to them. It could also be that the Sigil IS infact Sentient, but it doesn't talk to the Strifeguy in particular because either the Strifeguy lacks a condition that others have (Such as: The Infection, or having been contacted by the Entity) or because the Sigil thinks that Blackbird is a good partner, and allows her to speak.

[Xfing]

Actually, now I think it's plenty apparent that the Spectres are just extensions of the Entity itself.

Both Macil and the Oracle have lines saying stuff like "I am the one god", but in Macil's case also suggesting they're still distinct.

But the Oracle when it speaks when the bad path is chosen, pretty much states verbatim stuff that Entity would say. "I will strip the world of its energies so I can live forever, then find new worlds to conquer". Yeah, the Spectres are the will of the entity itself, definitely. They were probably free to roam when the comet crashed into the planet, unlike the Entity itself. They had limited power (as in, were unable to actually consume the world's life by themselves), but were strong enough to possess some key persons in the world and plot against each other to be the ones who'll complete the sigil and set their master free.

What's apparent is that they didn't really fancy cooperation very much - they'd much rather stab each other in the back. Kinda like the "favorite son" syndrome - each wanted to be the one to set the one god free. Funny that.

[ImmoranWarrior]

Well, that IS very common among villains. I am yet to find a duo of villains who doesn't betray eachother. Even when watching MLP: The Movie (Yes, I DO have a Brony Friend, and I don't judge him, besides, I had nothing to do at the time, and figured I would test my Patience), there are 2 villains who betray eachother, so, I am yet to find an exception.

But your theory isn't very out of the evidences. It is possible that the "Entity" we fight at the end is just a Lesser Form of it, and that the REAL Entity is something much greater, but separated itself for the Spectres to roam free. And likely, the Spectres possess some property that allows them to roam free of the comet, unlike the "Core" Entity

Also, I still don't see how the Sigil is going to free the Entity, since, not only does it already have the Sigil's powers, but if all that was needed was to open the door, evidence suggests that the Order had already somehow opened it (Since you can find the Order's Bots, even 2 Inquisitors)