So what really was the first FPS/RPG Hybrid?

[General Plastro]

The other (rather silly) thread got me curious, what is the oldest game you guys consider to be the first FPS/RPG Hybrid?

To me its Pathways into Darkness, a predecessor to Marathon (which in turn is a predecessor to Halo) made in 1993 by Bungie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XhUWrxuE1E

It places you as a military guy that went to a aztec piramid to bury a sleeping god thats spawning monsters there.

Game had dialogue with dead (through a magic cristal), you would have to talk to dead nazis that came to the piramid in the 1930's, your former squad mates and even some mexican guerrilheros.

It featured inventory management with combat and non combat itens, item combining and much more (including a box of cloning items, very useful to clone AK magazines each 5 minutes of real time).

It also had maps and such.

I would say it has even more RPG features than Strife, altho no voice acting and more depressing (yes Strife setting is depressing, but talking only to dead people is even more so).

Anyway, do you guys know any older game than that? i would be very much interested in playing a even older game of this category!

Oh and lets please have a more civil conversation than the other thread :)

[Bluebeak]

I would agree that Pathways is possibly the oldest fps/rpg game.

However I still would say Strife is probably one of the more streamlined and less complex ones. I remember Pathways being really daunting and punishing for a game, especially compared to Marathon which was much easier to play. System Shock 1 was also very hard to get into largely due to it's interface.

It's very much like comparing Wolfenstein 3D to earlier FPS games. While Wolfy 3D wasn't the first (and wasn't even Id's first fps) it was the first one to really set the bar and push the medium toward relevancy. Just like Strife, despite not selling particularly well.

[General Plastro]

Originally posted by ᴰᵣ. Cuddlebug:

I would agree that Pathways is possibly the oldest fps/rpg game.

However I still would say Strife is probably one of the more streamlined and less complex ones. I remember Pathways being really daunting and punishing for a game, especially compared to Marathon which was much easier to play. System Shock 1 was also very hard to get into largely due to it's interface.

It's very much like comparing Wolfenstein 3D to earlier FPS games. While Wolfy 3D wasn't the first (and wasn't even Id's first fps) it was the first one to really set the bar and push the medium toward relevancy. Just like Strife, despite not selling particularly well.

True, let alone the fact PiD is a Macintosh only game, people barely play on a Mac now, imagine in 1993.

Also, i think PiD was really 50/50 on the FPS/RPG part. You HAD to do level up your skill with guns otherwise you would die quite alot because you would missing most of your shots at long range.

Making it really feel like a RPG at times probably wasnt the best ideia.

And there is the end stages where you could get an ending and dont even know you had the "bad ending" and finish the game thinking that was it.

Still, dont we have a "Eye of the Beholder" kind of game (but with guns, of course from late 1980's that would fit a FPS/RPG hybrid? PiD couldnt really be the first one, would it?

[Bluebeak]

Originally posted by General Plastro:

True, let alone the fact PiD is a Macintosh only game, people barely play on a Mac now, imagine in 1993.

Well the Macintosh was a fairly popular computer back then. Windows did not surface as a dominant gaming platform until after Doom was installed on more PCs than it. Which prompted things like DirectX which helped push developers to make games for it.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by ᴰᵣ. Cuddlebug:

I would agree that Pathways is possibly the oldest fps/rpg game.

However I still would say Strife is probably one of the more streamlined and less complex ones. I remember Pathways being really daunting and punishing for a game, especially compared to Marathon which was much easier to play. System Shock 1 was also very hard to get into largely due to it's interface.

It's very much like comparing Wolfenstein 3D to earlier FPS games. While Wolfy 3D wasn't the first (and wasn't even Id's first fps) it was the first one to really set the bar and push the medium toward relevancy. Just like Strife, despite not selling particularly well.

Ok I agree with your words, but the difficulty of PID was in mood of its time, some rather hard tricks/puzzles to solve, the dialog system with words to type was requirering focus/patience and persistence. Some combats was very tough, the ammo management could be very rude, some more nasty stuff.

Marathon trilogy isn't as complex than System Shock 1, and in fact PID is closer to RPG than Marathon trilogy, but yeah its 3D was more complex than Doom, sort of close to SS1, and its UI is perfect and totally modern unlike for SS1. Its FPS gameplay is quite great including an excellent ammo management and this point (FPS gameplay) is much better than in PID and SS1.

So Marathon trilogy (1994-1996) is already very streamlining but not pushed as far than the console crap that is Halo. I doubt Strife is more Streamlined just more simple otherwise it would have mark me better. But yeah I'll get this Strife rehash anyway and it's a very welcome release.

[General Plastro]

Originally posted by sturmkoenig2k:

Uhm....what about Shadowcaster? Release was also in 1993. A weird fantasy RPG/FPS hybrid from Raven Software.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJO3bOPG5do&list=PL6FB1A668E25BEDE6

Hmm, i think the further we go back, the more blurred the lines of "FPS/RPG Hybrid" and "First Person RPG" become.

Shadowcaster surely seems more action focused than say... Eye of The Beholder (which came in 1991) but which one of the 2 categories would it fit more?

I wish it was as simple as to say "to be an FPS, it must have guns", but then we have Catacombs 3d & Heretic/Hexen where there are no guns but the gameplay is more similar to a shooter than a RPG.

Hmm, a question, Do you guys think games like Eye of the Beholder classify as "FPS/RPG hybrid"?

I initially thought no because of "turn based combat" and grid movement, but upon reflection i am not sure anymore.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by General Plastro:

...
Anyway, do you guys know any older game than that? i would be very much interested in playing a even older game of this category!
...

Why for playing only the older? :-) It's a rhetoric question I bet, for playing the list is interesting not just the older.

I don't know the game but it looks the first real FPS RPG was Star Cruiser released in 1988 for the PC-88. But it seems a Japan only game, and I'm not sure there's some emulation tool to play it on a PC.

My knowledge of this subgenre is limited hence my list rather short, and there's no console only release in this list:

• Pathway Into Darkness (1993)
  
• System Shock 1 (1994)
  
• Marathon 1 (1994)
  
• Marathon 2 Durandal (1995)
  
• Marathon Infinity (1996)
  
• Strife (I suppose so) (1996)
  
• System Shock 2 (1999)
  
• Deus Ex 1 (2000)
  
• Knights of the Old Republic (questionable due to pause/turn) (2003)
  
• Deus Ex Invisible War (2003)
  
• Knights of the Old Republic 2 (questionable as for the 1) (2004)
  
• Boiling Point: Road to Hell (Xenus 1) (2005)
  
• Pathologic (2005)
  
• Hellgate London (2007 - Caution playable but failed design)
  
• Mass Effect (2007)
  
• Stalker Shadow of Chernobyl (2007)
  
• Fallout 3 (2008)
  
• Stalker Clear Sky (2008)
  
• White Gold: War In Paradise (Re release as Xenus 2 White Gold) (2008)
  
• Borderlands (2009)
  
• Precursors (2009, 2010 EN version)
  
• Stalker Call of Pripyat (2010)
  
• Mass Effect 2 (2010)
  
• Alpha Protocol (2010)
  
• Fallout New Vegas (2010)
  
• Deus Ex Human Revolution (2011)
  
• EYE Divine Cybermancy (2011)
  
• Mass Effect 2 (2010)
  
• Borderlands 3 (2012)
  
• Borderlands The Pre-Sequel! (2014)

Not that short finally but still small for so many years. For sure the FPS RPG category could be categorized in sub genres:
- Those not fully FPS because of some pause or even turn system, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas.
- Those more RPG FPS than FPS RPG, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Mass Effect 1-3.
- Those more Diablo like FPS, Hellgate London, EYE Divine Cybermancy, Borderlands series.

I haven't included those too much oriented to Stealth and with a too limited shooter gameplay.

But before this re release of Strife, it wouldn't be in that list, I haven't played it yet so I can't be sure it fits. I'm also not sure that Pathologic fits, haven't played it either. Few other I haven't played was part of series and obviously fit.

[spiritman]

Marathon series has no so called "RPG elements" of any sort.;) Unless being somewhat heavy in story department is now considered a RPG element. Still, nice how you managed to fit *four* Bungie games on your list, only one of which fits it. And, in what way can KotOR games be considered to be first person shoters?

[General Plastro]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Originally posted by General Plastro:

...
Anyway, do you guys know any older game than that? i would be very much interested in playing a even older game of this category!
...

Why for playing only the older? :-) It's a rhetoric question I bet, for playing the list is interesting not just the older.

I don't know the game but it looks the first real FPS RPG was Star Cruiser released in 1988 for the PC-88. But it seems a Japan only game, and I'm not sure there's some emulation tool to play it on a PC.

My knowledge of this subgenre is limited hence my list rather short, and there's no console only release in this list:

• Pathway Into Darkness (1993)
  
• System Shock 1 (1994)
  
• Marathon 1 (1994)
  
• Marathon 2 Durandal (1995)
  
• Marathon Infinity (1996)
  
• Strife (I suppose so) (1996)
  
• System Shock 2 (1999)
  
• Deus Ex 1 (2000)
  
• Knights of the Old Republic (questionable due to pause/turn) (2003)
  
• Deus Ex Invisible War (2003)
  
• Knights of the Old Republic 2 (questionable as for the 1) (2004)
  
• Pathologic (2005)
  
• Hellgate London (2007 - Caution playable but failed design)
  
• Mass Effect (2007)
  
• Stalker Shadow of Chernobyl (2007)
  
• Fallout 3 (2008)
  
• Stalker Clear Sky (2008)
  
• Borderlands (2009)
  
• Stalker Call of Pripyat (2010)
  
• Mass Effect 2 (2010)
  
• Alpha Protocol (2010)
  
• Fallout New Vegas (2010)
  
• Deus Ex Human Revolution (2011)
  
• EYE Divine Cybermancy (2011)
  
• Mass Effect 2 (2010)
  
• Borderlands 3 (2012)
  
• Borderlands The Pre-Sequel! (2014)

Not that short finally but still small for so many years. For sure the FPS RPG category could be categorized in sub genres:
- Those not fully FPS because of some pause or even turn system, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas.
- Those more RPG FPS than FPS RPG, Knights of the Old Republic 1&2, Fallout 3, Fallout New Vegas, Mass Effect 1-3.
- Those more Diablo like FPS, Hellgate London, EYE Divine Cybermancy, Borderlands series.

I haven't included those too much oriented to Stealth and with a too limited shooter gameplay.

Now before this re release of Strife, it wouldn't be in that list, I haven't played it yet so I can't be sure it fits. I'm also not sure that Pathologic fits, haven't played it either. Few other I haven't played was part of series and obviously fit.

I like playing obscure games in general, besides finding out the oldest entry of a certain genre is interesting in its own way.

Also, why is Marathon and Mass Effect on that list?

Marathon is no RPG, it just had a good story behind it (extremely good one too), but there was no features to call it an RPG, IMO. To me if you call Marathon a RPG, then Halo would be one too (and then pretty much every FPS game out there).

Mass Effect isnt a FPS and if you include it, you would have to include a crapton of other third person shooter RPG games = /

Also KOTOR is a weird choice too.

At any rate, i will look up this Star Cruiser, if anything it might prove a interesting challenge to make it work on a modern machine if no emulator is avaiable :)

Btw, for the german folks out there, isnt there any older FPS/RPG game you guys made that actually came before any of the more known american ones?

I talking about stuff like Whale's Voyage (which is basically Eye of the Beholder in Space) or Albion.

[Dorok]

Originally posted by sturmkoenig2k:

Oh, you can add Precursors to your list. :) I bought that from Beamdog two years ago.

Yeah I did with :
- Boiling Point: Road to Hell (Xenus 1) (2005)
- White Gold: War In Paradise (Re release as Xenus 2 White Gold) (2008)

EDIT: Xenus 2 is also Beamdog I think, but both are also available through GamersGate but caution it's sort of quality but with too many bugs and translation problems. I have the GG versions but alas I think Beamdog is dishonest in that matter and some important re release patch are available only through Beamdog and for exact Beamdog version.

[Dorok]

Marathon is FPS RPG for the same reason that for example Stalker trilogy is, exploration is a lot of developed, there's NPC even if less, it's not that story is developed it's a large part of the gaemplay is about tricks/puzzles/finding info/progressing tricks.

If you played it and feel it is in modern category of FPS with heavy story then I'm surprised and I don't agree at all with you.

For the distinction between FPS and close behind view, it's totally abstract the action is the same and the TPS tag is an awful tag totally misguiding because third person means also scrolling, top down, iso like, many more. That distinction is purely fake for such point of view. FPS of FPS with cam a little back is totally the same for shooters. In case of ME series it's just a trick to make companions more present.

And for the crapload of FPS RPG like ME, the list would be welcome (no console title, with consoles of all time and exotic PC, the list would be 3 time bigger).

[Kain]

I would agree with Pathways Into Darkness, at least that's the earliest I can remember, followed by System Shock and Azrael's Tear. Marathon I'm not sure, apart from a developed story I wouldn't place it as a RPG.

[Dorok]

It's not only developed story but it's also developed exporation and progression. You won't be able quote me any shooter with that design balance. But I have doubt you really played it beside for a quick try.

But I agree that its lack of real inventory makes it arguable and ok that's perhaps just you point, but again, ok quote me another FPS story like that.

[Kain]

Exploration is not the only thing that defines an RPG and there is a distinct lack of character progression and NPC interaction and I mean TRUE interaction, not only reading logs.

[General Plastro]

Originally posted by Dorok:

Marathon is FPS RPG for the same reason that for example Stalker trilogy is, exploration is a lot of developed, there's NPC even if less, it's not that story is developed it's a large part of the gaemplay is about tricks/puzzles/finding info/progressing tricks.

If you played it and feel it is in modern category of FPS with heavy story then I'm surprised and I don't agree at all with you.

For the distinction between FPS and close behind view, it's totally abstract the action is the same abd the TPS tag os totally misguiding because third person means also scrolling, top down, iso like, many more. That distinction is purely fake for such point of view. FPS of FPS with cam a little back is totally the same for shooters. In case of ME series it's just a trick to make companions more present.

And for the crapload if FPS RPG like ME, the list would be welcome.

I actually find Marathon much more comparable to Doom and anything.

You dont have "NPCs" you have friendly combatants, the affectionally called "Bobs" and later the Spnthk or whatever you call them (the alien with robes), you dont dialogue with them (with the sole exception of their Leader, Blake which you never talk with in person).

There is no dialogue choices, Durandal and the other 3 main computers talk with you but you never can reply or interact with. Its no diferent than any other FPS with a story and good map design.

Sure you had some puzzles, but nothing Duke 3d didint do too, shooting switches to raise/lower Lava or Water isnt really that "RPGing" to me.

You also have moments with "hub" maps, where you have to go through diferent paths (each ending with you activating a switch, usually) and after you switch all of them, you open up a new path.

Again, such thing was done in Hexen and i could hardly call that a RPG.

Map exploration was awesome and some maps offered exclusive alternating paths, but again so did games such as Desert Storm or the PS1 Medal of Honor games.

[Kain]

I could also consider the Ultima Underword if not for the lack of guns, yet, apart from that it would be the true original FPS/RPG.