Trample and deathtouch that don't kill creatures

[Elstar]

This has bugged me for a while according to the rules if a creature has deathtouch and trample

If it where one rule is a little wrong it is the deathtuch trample rule
http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Deathtouch
"If an attacking creature with deathtouch and trample becomes blocked, the attacking creature first assigns damage to the creature(s) blocking it. Once all those blocking creatures are assigned lethal damage, any remaining damage is assigned as its controller chooses among those blocking creatures and the player or planeswalker the creature is attacking. However, since the creature has deathtouch, assigning even 1 damage to a creature is considered to be lethal damage. "
applied to a creature that negates combat damage(or indestructible). The problem is that lethal damage don't nessesary kill a creature while trample damadge essentially assumes it does.

Logically if the creature survives deathtouch one would assume it would absorb trampledamage equal to it's toughness.

Does anyone know if this is a problem with the wording when the rules where written or if this was indead the intended functionallity? Is there any situations where it would be wrong to take the toughness into account?

[Elstar]

Is it the deathtouch rule that has problems when it gives out 1 damagde and say it is leathal damage without checking that it is?

If two creature would block and one the first would prevent combat damage while having more thougness then the oponents attack, the second creature is still killed if the attacker has 2 attack despite the fact that the first one could have protected the second one if the attacker would "known" it did not kill the first

[Torgan]

Even if creature has protection or is indestructible, one dmg is considered lethal, so you can trample everything else. Creature will of course stay alive if have protection or is indestructible...
Look at this other way, even 50 power would not kill that creature, so it could absorb(i know that is not by rules). Creature with deathtouch deals 1 dmg, that is equal unlimited power(destroy effect), so no need to deal more to that creature, there is no different if toughness is 1, 5 or even 1000 one is enough, blocking creature's ability stops destroy effect, but not negates that 1 dmg is lethal. So look on that 1 deathtouch damage like just enough to kill any toughness. So if you block with creature with normal trample, and opponent prevent dmg to his blocking creature, rest still trample. Because you just need to assign ammount of dmg that will kill creature rest goes to player, in deathtouch case it is 1. Assigning, resolving and dealing dmg are separate parts. When dmg resolves, assignied 1 dmg not kills creature blocking because creature's ability, not because it is not enough to kill.

[Elstar]

Of couse that is the rule. This is subjective but it don't "feel" like the intended functionallity if you assume lethal damage kills the target wouthout acually killing the target. Essentially leathal don't mean "killing" but give one damage to all targets and all the rest to the last. It has nothing to do with killing the creature. So infinite power vs creatures but not vs players as he may survive tramper.

[zysron]

elstar.... please say trample just one time instead of tramper

[Elstar]

Sure "trample just one time instead of tramper" :)
but yeah hope I got all the small buggers

[Nevron]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Torgan:

Even if creature has protection or is indestructible, one dmg is considered lethal, so you can trample everything else. Creature will of course stay alive if have protection or is indestructible...
Look at this other way, even 50 power would not kill that creature, so it could absorb(i know that is not by rules). Creature with deathtouch deals 1 dmg, that is equal unlimited power(destroy effect), so no need to deal more to that creature, there is no different if toughness is 1, 5 or even 1000 one is enough, blocking creature's ability stops destroy effect, but not negates that 1 dmg is lethal. So look on that 1 deathtouch damage like just enough to kill any toughness. So if you block with creature with normal trample, and opponent prevent dmg to his blocking creature, rest still trample. Because you just need to assign ammount of dmg that will kill creature rest goes to player, in deathtouch case it is 1. Assigning, resolving and dealing dmg are separate parts. When dmg resolves, assignied 1 dmg not kills creature blocking because creature's ability, not because it is not enough to kill.

I don't think you description of death touch damage is accurate. If that was true there would be no need for creatures with death touch to ever have more than 1 power, yet many creatures with death touch have different numbers in their power scores. I think this sentence in the rules explains the situation:

"When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt."

Combat damage has to be assigned first and then once it has from both sides only then do the special abilities like death touch come into play.

[xblacklightz]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Torgan:

Even if creature has protection or is indestructible, one dmg is considered lethal, so you can trample everything else. Creature will of course stay alive if have protection or is indestructible...
Look at this other way, even 50 power would not kill that creature, so it could absorb(i know that is not by rules). Creature with deathtouch deals 1 dmg, that is equal unlimited power(destroy effect), so no need to deal more to that creature, there is no different if toughness is 1, 5 or even 1000 one is enough, blocking creature's ability stops destroy effect, but not negates that 1 dmg is lethal. So look on that 1 deathtouch damage like just enough to kill any toughness. So if you block with creature with normal trample, and opponent prevent dmg to his blocking creature, rest still trample. Because you just need to assign ammount of dmg that will kill creature rest goes to player, in deathtouch case it is 1. Assigning, resolving and dealing dmg are separate parts. When dmg resolves, assignied 1 dmg not kills creature blocking because creature's ability, not because it is not enough to kill.

Just a clarifaction: protection cancels all damage, indestructible prevents the creature from dying to damage (it can still die to -1/-1 counters or debuffs). And the way it goes is the damage takes effect first then card text hence say you have a 5/5 death touch trample and your opponent blocks with a 0/6 wall and a 2/2 to play around say wild size. If you ordered damage to the wall first the 5 damage goes through to the wall first, card text is checked (was damage dealt and if so destroy that creature that was damaged), then it resolves and the 2/2 is alive. If you did have a pump that was +2/+2 and assigned damage the same way then your creature would deal 6 damage to the wall and 1 damage to the 2/2 and both would die. Thats I way I see it. And remember; damage does not go on the stack, it is assigned and checked but can't be interacted with how be it the source of the damage can be prevented or interacted with.

[Elstar]

Yeah, thats a little of the issue with deathtouch as it is a hybrid when it comes to this rule:

"When checking for assigned lethal damage, take into account damage already marked on the creature and damage from other creatures that’s being assigned during the same combat damage step, but not any abilities or effects that might change the amount of damage that’s actually dealt."

One could instead do it by assinging all damadge to the first blocker. Then if it dies one(leathal) damage is removed and the damadge propagates on, if it don't die the damage equal to it's current life(leathal) is absorbed and the damage propagates to the next blocker. If there are no more blockers, there is still damage left and the attacker has trample the rest of the damage goes to the player. If there is no trample the extra damage does nothing as normal.

As of now deathtouch splits itself when the damage is assigned instead. Atleast in 2015 if your opponent has a Guard Gomazoa and attack it with 4 deathtouch + trample damaged the opponent recives 3 damage.

[Torgan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von xblacklightz:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Torgan:

Even if creature has protection or is indestructible, one dmg is considered lethal, so you can trample everything else. Creature will of course stay alive if have protection or is indestructible...
Look at this other way, even 50 power would not kill that creature, so it could absorb(i know that is not by rules). Creature with deathtouch deals 1 dmg, that is equal unlimited power(destroy effect), so no need to deal more to that creature, there is no different if toughness is 1, 5 or even 1000 one is enough, blocking creature's ability stops destroy effect, but not negates that 1 dmg is lethal. So look on that 1 deathtouch damage like just enough to kill any toughness. So if you block with creature with normal trample, and opponent prevent dmg to his blocking creature, rest still trample. Because you just need to assign ammount of dmg that will kill creature rest goes to player, in deathtouch case it is 1. Assigning, resolving and dealing dmg are separate parts. When dmg resolves, assignied 1 dmg not kills creature blocking because creature's ability, not because it is not enough to kill.

Just a clarifaction: protection cancels all damage, indestructible prevents the creature from dying to damage (it can still die to -1/-1 counters or debuffs). And the way it goes is the damage takes effect first then card text hence say you have a 5/5 death touch trample and your opponent blocks with a 0/6 wall and a 2/2 to play around say wild size. If you ordered damage to the wall first the 5 damage goes through to the wall first, card text is checked (was damage dealt and if so destroy that creature that was damaged), then it resolves and the 2/2 is alive. If you did have a pump that was +2/+2 and assigned damage the same way then your creature would deal 6 damage to the wall and 1 damage to the 2/2 and both would die. Thats I way I see it. And remember; damage does not go on the stack, it is assigned and checked but can't be interacted with how be it the source of the damage can be prevented or interacted with.

If creature have deathtouch, 1 dmg is considered lethal, so in your example, one dmg to the wall, and one dmg to 2/2. Pumping creature won't help, only dmg prevention can help. Same it is if your creature have protection, 1 dmg is still considered lethal, so if creature lose protection, it would die of it.
Or like in example with Guard Gomozoa, you still need to assign one dmg only, rest can trample. Even Trampler without deathtouch if it is blocked by Gomozoa will trample dmg, for power over 3.

[Nickslayer7]

Starting with Magic Origins, it gained a new reminder text: Trample (This creature can deal excess combat damage to defending player or planeswalker while attacking.). There was no change to how trample worked, the reminder text was just changed for clarity and brevity. [5]

[Nickslayer7]

Rule 702.2b Any nonzero amount of combat damage assigned to a creature by a source with deathtouch is considered to be lethal damage, regardless of that creature's toughness. See rule

[Nickslayer7]

And Rule translation for 702.2b - This bypasses the need to compare damage to toughness and damage is always lethal, damage of any amount.

[Nickslayer7]

Trample Specificaly changes the way damage assignement takes place where deathtouch also specificaly needs to only assign non-zero damage to be considered lethal. Protection just prevents damage at the moment its dealt. Thus you assign 1 damage and trample the rest over to the next creature/player

[Elstar]

The only thing that is a little wierd is that 702.2b assumes(assuming is dangerus) lethal damage without checking if that it is lethal damage. This leads to the unintuitive interaction with damadge prevention. It still works as it is an unambiguous rule equal to all.

[piripiago]

This is because combat damage is broken into two steps:
1) Each player assigns how each attacking or blocking creatures he or she controls will deal its combat damage.
2) All creatures simultaneously deal their assigned combat damage.

The damage assignment doesn't care about any replacement effects or damage prevention that will later modify the amount of damage that is actually dealt. Trying to take those effects into account would add a lot of complication. Especially with cards like Harm's Way[magiccards.info] that you don't make the final decisions for until the replacement effect is actually applied.