'Creature/player' ability targets planeswalkers???

[Beardless Bob]

Hi All,

I'm confused. I thought spells and abilities that target players and/or creatures could not target Planeswalkers; a spell or ability has to specify 'Planeswalker' to achieve this objective.

Check out the pic. If you can figure it out, please let me know how AI was able to kill off my Planeswalker. :(

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139190192
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139192610

[pjfeigel]

In paper, a Planeswalker cannot be targeted by the reflexive triggered ability of of your opponent's Manticore.

However, their Manticore's reflexive triggered ability can target you. And, when that ability resolves, and the noncombat damage would be dealt, they can redirect the damage from you to a Planeswalker you control.

306.7. If noncombat damage would be dealt to a player by a source controlled by an opponent, that opponent may have that source deal that damage to a planeswalker the first player controls instead. This is a redirection effect (see rule 614.9) and is subject to the normal rules for ordering replacement effects (see rule 616). The opponent chooses whether to redirect the damage as the redirection effect is applied.

And, for some stupid reason, that irks me to no end, the Devs in Duels have decided to force us to use a sloppy short-cut;

4.2 Tournament Shortcuts

• A player who chooses an opponent’s planeswalker as the target of a spell or ability that cannot normally target a planeswalker is assumed to be targeting that opponent and redirecting the damage on resolution. The player must adhere to that choice unless an opponent responds.

So, there's nothing illegal about the move.

[Beardless Bob]

Wow, that sucks manticore giblets.
Thanks for the info, though.
I'll keep it in mind when playing in the future.

[Captain_Narol]

In practice, that means that any damage card that says "target player" can also target a PW instead.

[Primordial]

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

And, for some stupid reason, that irks me to no end, the Devs in Duels have decided to force us to use a sloppy short-cut

Is there any effect or card that grants players hexproof from the cardpool we're allowed to play?
I think it's totally acceptable unless there was an Orb of Warding reprint on a future set or a similar effect.

[pjfeigel]

Originally posted by Primordial:

Is there any effect or card that grants players hexproof from the cardpool we're allowed to play?
I think it's totally acceptable unless there was an Orb of Warding reprint on a future set or a similar effect.

It's possible to bounce a "targeted" Planeswalker to its owner's hand in response to a Spell/Ability.

And, according to the Tournament Rules, someone responding to the announced shortcut would allow the Opponent of the Planeswalker to change their mind, to either deal damage to the Player or another Planeswalker they control.

I've just tested this against the AI.

I've control 3x Planeswalkers; Gideon, Anaji and Nissa.
The AI just Embalmed Heart-Piecer Manticore.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139717060

The AI sacrificed their other Heart-Piecer Manticore, the reflexive trigger targets Gideon.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139717594

In response, I use Eldrazi Discplacer to Exile/Return Aviary Mechanic, and use the Mechanic's ability to bounce my Gideon.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139717809

With Gideon safely in my hand, the Heart-Piercer Manticore's reflexive trigger is about to resolve...
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139717906

The turn ends, my next turn begins. Neither Anaji, Nissa, nor myself were dealt the 4 damage.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139718167

[pjfeigel]

Furthermore, I just tested this with the AI.

The AI targeted my Gideon with a Heart-Piercer's reflexive trigger.

In response, I...

• Displaced a Wall of Resurgence to animate a Plains.
  
• Displaced the animated Plains to trigger Emeria Shepherd.
  
• Used the Emeria Shepherd to put Imprison in the Moon onto the battlefield attached to Gideon.
  
• Dispalced the Wall of Resurgence again to animate the Land-Gideon.
  
• Displaced Avairy Mechanic to bounce the Imprison in the Moon.

Got all that? I did a whole lot of work, just to turn the Planeswalker into a Planeswalker Creature.

If that's all that happens, even though there's not currently an arrow from the Manticore, then when the reflexive trigger resolves, Gideon will be dealt damage and lose the Loyalty counters.

However, if you cast Blossoming Defense targeting Gideon, giving him Hexproof, then the reflexive trigger won't dealt any damage.

[Primordial]

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Furthermore, I just tested this with the AI.

The AI targeted my Gideon with a Heart-Piercer's reflexive trigger.

In response, I...

• Displaced a Wall of Resurgence to animate a Plains.
  
• Displaced the animated Plains to trigger Emeria Shepherd.
  
• Used the Emeria Shepherd to put Imprison in the Moon onto the battlefield attached to Gideon.
  
• Dispalced the Wall of Resurgence again to animate the Land-Gideon.
  
• Displaced Avairy Mechanic to bounce the Imprison in the Moon.

Got all that? I did a whole lot of work, just to turn the Planeswalker into a Planeswalker Creature.

If that's all that happens, even though there's not currently an arrow from the Manticore, then when the reflexive trigger resolves, Gideon will be dealt damage and lose the Loyalty counters.

However, if you cast Blossoming Defense targeting Gideon, giving him Hexproof, then the reflexive trigger won't dealt any damage.

The ability should just fizzle if you turn Gideon into a land using Imprisioned in the Moon at instant speed. The card states that the enchanted permanent loses all other types. Even if it would be reduced to no loyalty counters, that wouldn't matter since it wouldn't be a PW (or a creature for that matter) at the time the damage resolved.

[pjfeigel]

Originally posted by Primordial:

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

• Displaced Avairy Mechanic to bounce the Imprison in the Moon.

Got all that? I did a whole lot of work, just to turn the Planeswalker into a Planeswalker Creature.

The ability should just fizzle if you turn Gideon into a land using Imprisioned in the Moon at instant speed. The card states that the enchanted permanent loses all other types. Even if it would be reduced to no loyalty counters, that wouldn't matter since it wouldn't be a PW (or a creature for that matter) at the time the damage resolved.

Did you actually read what was written?

a) The legality of the target of a Spell/Ability is checked twice; When it's put on the Stack and when it would resolve.

When the reflexive trigger was put on the Stack, Gideon was a Planeswalker.
When the reflexive trigger begins to resolve, Gideon is STILL a Planeswalker.

b) It seems that you completely missed the point, seeing that the reflexive trigger DOES. NOT. TARGET. PLANESWALKERS.

[Primordial]

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Did you actually read what was written?

a) The legality of the target of a Spell/Ability is checked twice; When it's put on the Stack and when it would resolve.

When the reflexive trigger was put on the Stack, Gideon was a Planeswalker.
When the reflexive trigger begins to resolve, Gideon is STILL a Planeswalker.

Silly me, I've gone and skipped the last step. Point still stands though, it's now a valid target.

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

b) It seems that you completely missed the point, seeing that the reflexive trigger DOES. NOT. TARGET. PLANESWALKERS.

Do you mean this videogame does not follow actual, proper, up-to-date and peer-reviewed Magic the Gathering rules? Why, that must exasperate you to the point of madness. Amusing.

[ಠ_ಠ]

Originally posted by Primordial:

Do you mean this videogame does not follow actual, proper, up-to-date and peer-reviewed Magic the Gathering rules? Why, that must exasperate you to the point of madness. Amusing.

Considering how poorly Duels implements the rules (now, and in past iterations), yes it is rather frustrating. And why shouldn't it be? It is meant to be an accurate representation of Magic, yet it consistently fails at the one thing it should do best: enforce the rules of the game. It's a legitimate complaint, that any Magic player worth their salt would have.

[Primordial]

Originally posted by Slinky:

It is meant to be an accurate representation of Magic

Is it though? Where's your Upkeep step? Where's your sideboard? Where are your Triskadekaphobias and Demonic Pacts?

Any Magic player worth their salt would've realised by now this is just a watered down version of MTGO, hence the laxness in enforcing strict rules.

[neRok]

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Furthermore, I just tested this with the AI.

The AI targeted my Gideon with a Heart-Piercer's reflexive trigger.

In response, I...

• Displaced a Wall of Resurgence to animate a Plains.
  
• Displaced the animated Plains to trigger Emeria Shepherd.
  
• Used the Emeria Shepherd to put Imprison in the Moon onto the battlefield attached to Gideon.
  
• Dispalced the Wall of Resurgence again to animate the Land-Gideon.
  
• Displaced Avairy Mechanic to bounce the Imprison in the Moon.

Got all that? I did a whole lot of work, just to turn the Planeswalker into a Planeswalker Creature.

If that's all that happens, even though there's not currently an arrow from the Manticore, then when the reflexive trigger resolves, Gideon will be dealt damage and lose the Loyalty counters.

However, if you cast Blossoming Defense targeting Gideon, giving him Hexproof, then the reflexive trigger won't dealt any damage.

Haha, this must have taken a long time and a few restarts to get the board setup in such a state, AND have the AI do the manticore at the time it did. That's dedication.