indestructible - rules - doubt

[SpectrumWarrior]

Hello Magic community!
I would like to use your knowledge to know if I'm a noob or if it is a bug

It happened to me twice. Both with Archagel Avacyn
"When Archangel Avacyn enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn."

One time I just casted the creature and on the same turn it was destroyed by Flesh to Dust - "Destroy target creature. It cant be regererated."

and another time it was killed by Grasp of Darkness - "Target creature gets -4/-4 util end of turn"

What happened? it is a bug? or one can cast an instant before the effect of the Angel kicks in so he is not covered by indestructible just yet when the spell resolve?

thank you all in advance

[Vlad - Koleetro - 콜리트로]

indestructible cannot be destroyed but they can "Die"
if thoughness reaches 0, the creature automatically dies. if a creature gets sacreficed, it dies.
indestructible protects from cards that say "destroy" but not from cards that give -x/-x.

[SpectrumWarrior]

Yeah...I get that it could die from Grasp of Darkness
but Flesh to Dust??

[Vlad - Koleetro - 콜리트로]

no. it should not die from flesh to dust

[shadow]

I'm actually not sure that a -x/-x card should work on it, given that "Destroy effects and lethal damage won't destroy it." is the rules-exact definition of "Indestructible".

My only guess as to why a -x/-x card could theoretically work would be that it technically isn't *damage*, per-se, but rather an actual reduction in the creature's toughness, as Vlad said above ^.

That being said, Flesh to Dust shouldn't have worked on it. So I'd call that a bug, yes.

[Mjollnir49172]

The thing with avacyn is that it's not indestructible at the time it arrive on the field. So you have the time to use any spells to destroy the creatures before the effect is on.

[Mr.Obama95]

i'm a bit rusty into Magic framework, but as far i can remember istants get some kind of timing priority, even if they are casted right after , in the situations you mentioned

[Vlad - Koleetro - 콜리트로]

Oh! the flesh to dust was resolved BEFORE the indestructible effect applied. when avacyn enters the battlefield, her ETB effect (indestructible) goes on the stack so your opponent can respond to the effect by destroying avacyn first.

[76561198018860751]

Originally posted by SpectrumWarrior:

It happened to me twice. Both with Archagel Avacyn
"When Archangel Avacyn enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn."

Yeah, keyword being "When", which means after she enters the battlefield, her ability goes on stack and must be resolved, which ties to this:

Originally posted by SpectrumWarrior:

What happened? it is a bug? or one can cast an instant before the effect of the Angel kicks in so he is not covered by indestructible just yet when the spell resolve?

Correct. If you play Avacyn, but your opponent plays Flash to Dust as response, because it's instant speed speel, it resolves before Avacyn's ability, therefore it can still kill creature B because it didn't yet get Indestructible ability from Avacyn. If you opponent played FtD after Avacyn's ability was resolved, then they could not kill your creature B as it now has IND trait.

Originally posted by SpectrumWarrior:

and another time it was killed by Grasp of Darkness - "Target creature gets -4/-4 util end of turn"

-X/-X counters are not traditional damage dealer. They "shrink" creatures. Indestructible only applies to creature\spell damage. So, for example, if you have Indestructible Avacyn which is 4/4, and your opponent plays Grasp of Darkness which gives -4/-4 to creature, it "shrinks" Avacyn to 0/0 creature, which means it kills her, regardless of her IND trait.

Also, indirect "sacrfice" spells and abilities affect IND creatures, such as Flashbag Marauder or Bonesplitters, as they don't target creature itself, but player, so if your IND creature is the only one you have on board, you must sacrifice it.

IND creatures can be exiled as well (unless they have shroud\hexproof). Indestructible creatures are also unaffected by deathtouch creatures.

Hope this helps.

[peter.achde]

Originally posted by Vlad Is Love:

no. it should not die from flesh to dust

You're wrong

Originally posted by shadow:

That being said, Flesh to Dust shouldn't have worked on it. So I'd call that a bug, yes.

and you're wrong

[pjfeigel]

Originally posted by njmfff:

because it's instant speed speel, it resolves before Avacyn's ability,

There is no such thing as "speed" in Magic. Nothing is "fast", nothing is "slow".

The reason the Flesh to Dust resolves first is because it is the top object on the Stack.
The same thing would have happened if someone had activated a Brain in the Jar to cast a Collective Effort.

Also, indirect "sacrfice" spells and abilities affect IND creatures, such as Flashbag Marauder or Bonesplitters, as they don't target creature itself, but player, so if your IND creature is the only one you have on board, you must sacrifice it.

a) Fleshbag Maruader's ability does not target anything. Not players, not Creatures.
b) Bone Splinters does not target any player. It targets a Creature, which it destroys. It has an additional Cost of sacrificing a Creature.

Indestructible creatures are also unaffected by deathtouch creatures.

They are "affected", they just ignore the State-Based Action that would cause their Destruction.

[Talynt]

The thing people get confused about with indestructable is this:
Say you have a 5/5 and do 5 or more damage to it, it doesnt die because that damage is cleaned up at the end of the turn. This is the cleanup step, damage that stays after that step does indeed kill the creature if its health is still below 0. So "till end of turn" spells wont kill a creature with indestructable but a permanent that maes its health stay down after the cleanup step will kill it. Did I describe that easily enough?

[76561198018860751]

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

There is no such thing as "speed" in Magic. Nothing is "fast", nothing is "slow".

Instant is "fast" as it can be played at any time, opposite sorcery which can only be played on players turn. So there are "fast" and "slow" ... "things" in Magic.

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

The reason the Flesh to Dust resolves first is because it is the top object on the Stack.
The same thing would have happened if someone had activated a Brain in the Jar to cast a Collective Effort.

I already said that about stacks, so I have no idea why you just repeated my words with different example card (BitJ)

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

a) Fleshbag Maruader's ability does not target anything. Not players, not Creatures.

No actually, because Fleshbag says that "When FB enters the battlefield, each player must sacrifice a creature", so it does target a player(s).

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

b) Bone Splinters does not target any player. It targets a Creature, which it destroys. It has an additional Cost of sacrificing a Creature.

You're right about this one, BS targets and destroys the target opponents creature, not sacrifice it. My mistake.

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Originally posted by njmfff:

Indestructible creatures are also unaffected by deathtouch creatures.

They are "affected", they just ignore the State-Based Action that would cause their Destruction.

Yeah, that's all nice, but will 1/1 deathtouch creature blocker kill 5/5 indestructible creature (like regular) or not?

[pjfeigel]

Originally posted by Solist:

This is the cleanup step, damage that stays after that step does indeed kill the creature if its health is still below 0.

a) Creatures don't have "health". Creatures have Toughness, and damage dealt does not lower a Creature's Toughness.
A Creature with Toughness greater than 0 and damage greater or equal to its Toughness is destroyed. If the Creature is indestructible, it is not destroyed.

b) The Cleanup step is the final step in a turn. First, the Active Player discards down to their handsize, then all damage is removed from permanents and all "this turn" and "until end of turn" effects end. Players don't normally get priority in the Step, but if there is a State-Based Action to perform or a triggered ability to be put on the Stack, players get priority and can cast spells/abilities.

• If a player got priority, then there will be another Cleanup step after the current. And so on and so forth. There is no way for damage to remain on a Creature, or an "until end of turn" or "this turn" effect to last beyond the turn it was dealt/created.
  
• In Duels, if a player gets Priority in the Cleanup step, any damage that does not destroy a Creature is immediately removed after being dealt, and all continuous effects that don't reduce a Creature's Toughness to 0 or less immediately end after being created.

[pjfeigel]

Originally posted by njmfff:

Instant is "fast" as it can be played at any time, opposite sorcery which can only be played on players turn. So there are "fast" and "slow" ... "things" in Magic.

Here's the Rulebook; http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules_20170119.txt

Find the Rule that says either "speed", "fast" or "slow". Go ahead, I'll wait.

*Spoiler Alert* They're not there.

I already said that about stacks,

Because there are no "stackS". The Stack (singular) is A zone of the game.
There is only ever one, even if it is empty.

No actually, because Fleshbag says that "When FB enters the battlefield, each player must sacrifice a creature", so it does target a player(s).

Wrong.
A Spell/Ability only targets is it a) Specifically states the word "TARGET", or b) is an Aura Spell.

A Player having Shroud or Hexproof will NOT get them from having to sacrifice a Creature.

Yeah, that's all nice, but will 1/1 deathtouch creature blocker kill 5/5 indestructible creature (like regular) or not?

Like I said, the State-Based Action that would cause the Destruction is ignored.

[76561198018860751]

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Originally posted by njmfff:

Instant is "fast" as it can be played at any time, opposite sorcery which can only be played on players turn. So there are "fast" and "slow" ... "things" in Magic.

Here's the Rulebook; {LINK REMOVED}http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules_20170119.txt

Find the Rule that says either "speed", "fast" or "slow". Go ahead, I'll wait.

Who said anything about "speed" in rules? It's called Instant for a reason. It can be played any time, opposed to Sorcery which can only be played on players turn. I am sure you know what I am talking about, but you just want to go in circle for whatever reasons.

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

*Spoiler Alert* They're not there.

I already said that about stacks,

Because there are no "stackS". The Stack (singular) is A zone of the game.
There is only ever one, even if it is empty.

Ok, we are saying the same thing, but since English is not my native language, I said it in plural. But we are talking about same thing.

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Wrong.
A Spell/Ability only targets is it a) Specifically states the word "TARGET", or b) is an Aura Spell.

A Player having Shroud or Hexproof will NOT get them from having to sacrifice a Creature.

As far as I know, there isn't a card that gives Shroud or Hexproof to player in Duels so paper Magic rule about this is irrelavent. It's like talking about "Cycle" when there isn't "cycle" card in Duels.

As for the Hexproof creatures (which there are few), you are right, they cannot be targeted directly, but if I remember correctly, they can still be targeted indirectly, via spells and abilities that target player and force him to sacrifice creature.

Correct me if I am wrong, since Darksteel was the last set I played before Duels and some Plainswalker games, and that was long time ago and they might have changed this rule.

Originally posted by pjfeigel:

Like I said, the State-Based Action that would cause the Destruction is ignored.

So in other words, they aren't destroyed by deathtouch creatures. We're just going in circle here.