Summoning sickness and vehicles.

[Greywolf]

You cannot tap a creature with summoning sickness to crew a vehicle, it goes against the rule of summoning sickness. Because the vehicle says "tap" and I have not seen an extra text in parenthesis that says "you can use creatures with summoning sickness".

[pjfeigel]

Publicado originalmente por seriaon:

I just didn't elaborate them sice they weren't impotant for the examples I was giving. I was trying to explain the general concept of summoning sicknes the easyest way possible.

This isn't a "general concept". This is a specific Rule, with specific language. And, you may think your generalizing may be unimportant, but that's what leads players to make false assumptions based on faulty information, like the OP did.

And, to quote Bo Levar; "I'd be happy to stop contradicting you, Urza, just as soon as you start being right."

Publicado originalmente por Captain Narol:

It's quite simple :

If it's so simple, they why do so many people (including yourself) fail to get it right?

Creatures with sumoning sickness cannot attack or use activated abilities,

That's wrong.

Publicado originalmente por perico2palotes:

* Cannot use their own activated abilities that require tapping.

Again, wrong.

Publicado originalmente por pjfeigel:

A Vehicle that's already been crewed an tap itself to activate its own Crew ability.
An Artifact Token copy of Whirler Rogue an tap itself to activate its own ability.

• 302.6. A creature’s activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can’t be activated unless the creature has been under its controller’s control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. A creature can’t attack unless it has been under its controller’s control continuously since his or her most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the “summoning sickness” rule.

The restriction on Creatures, that have not been under their controller's control since the beginning of their most recent turn, ONLY applies to being Declared as Attacking and activated abilities that cost either {T} (the Tap symbol) or {Q} (the Untap symbol). Nothing more. Nothing less.

[TheStoryteller01]

The rules allow a creature with summoning sickness to be tapped to crew a vehicle.

Personally I find this game mechanic highly unlogical ......but then again, this is MTG.....

[GeneralVeers]

Colossal Whale. Equipped with Sword of Kaldra.

"Unlogical" shouldn't even be an issue. :)

[Greywolf]

What should be done, I think, instead of having a huge book of rules, just have a small rulebook of like 2 pages explaining the mechanics of magic (taping, mana, combat, etc.) and the cards themselves create new rules (new abilities are all explained on the cards themselves). I know they already do that for a couple of years now and it helps alot. But rules are difficult to write since there are often things that you forget to mention and people are then misinterpreting them.

That's one thing I like about magic, it's diversity and that hte cards break the basic rules of magic when you play them. Hehe! It's the cards that makes the rules.

Oh! And thank you all, even the trolls, to wake me up. I think I was sleeping on gas when I wrote this topic. hehe!

[pjfeigel]

Publicado originalmente por lancelot2001ca:

What should be done, I think, instead of having a huge book of rules, just have a small rulebook of like 2 pages explaining the mechanics of magic (taping, mana, combat, etc.) and the cards themselves create new rules (new abilities are all explained on the cards themselves).

So, you want to play Yugioh?

That has got to be the worst idea I have heard in a while. And, that is saying something.

MtG cards have enough text on them already, they don't need additional text to take the place of actual Rules, just because noobs can't be bothered to read the Rulebook.

that hte cards break the basic rules of magic when you play them. Hehe! It's the cards that makes the rules.

Such as... ?

Just because someone doesn't comprehend the Rules, does not mean a Rule has been broken.

[Greywolf]

They break the rules because they are the rules. Like a card that untaps other cards, normally you can't untap a card until your untap phase, but that card allows you to untap. Or the haste ability, which enables a creature to tap or attack right after summoning. Cards are the rules. :D

[pjfeigel]

Publicado originalmente por lancelot2001ca:

They break the rules because they are the rules.

Something tells me you've never actually read a Rulebook. You should fix that.

Like a card that untaps other cards, normally you can't untap a card until your untap phase, but that card allows you to untap.

There is no Rule that states things only untap in the Untap step.

Or the haste ability, which enables a creature to tap or attack right after summoning.

That is one Rule creating an exception to another Rule, not the breaking of any Rule.

• 702.10b If a creature has haste, it can attack even if it hasn’t been controlled by its controller continuously since his or her most recent turn began. (See rule 302.6.)
  
  
• 702.10c If a creature has haste, its controller can activate its activated abilities whose cost includes the tap symbol or the untap symbol even if that creature hasn’t been controlled by that player continuously since his or her most recent turn began. (See rule 302.6.)

So, in other words, nothing of what you have mentioned is any Card that breakes any Rule.

[ChikyzRos]

This happens because they are being tapped by the hability of other cards. That's all :) They cannot tap themselves if they have summoning sickness :d

[pjfeigel]

Publicado originalmente por ChikyzRos:

They cannot tap themselves if they have summoning sickness :d

For the fourth time in the thread... Wrong.

Publicado originalmente por pjfeigel:

A Vehicle that's already been crewed an tap itself to activate its own Crew ability.
An Artifact Token copy of Whirler Rogue an tap itself to activate its own ability.

[ChikyzRos]

Publicado originalmente por pjfeigel:

A Vehicle that's already been crewed an tap itself to activate its own Crew ability.
An Artifact Token copy of Whirler Rogue an tap itself to activate its own ability.

But this cards don't tap themselves; their ability tap another card that happen to be the same card that's using the ability :)

[pjfeigel]

Publicado originalmente por ChikyzRos:

But this cards don't tap themselves; their ability tap another card that happen to be the same card that's using the ability :)

Again... Wrong.

Look, 302.6 is REALLY simple. If you want to get it right, just say the words "Tap Symbol".

"Tap themselves" is Wrong. "Tap Symbol" is correct.

[ChikyzRos]

Publicado originalmente por pjfeigel:

"Tap themselves" is Wrong. "Tap Symbol" is correct.

And what the tap symbol means?

[GeneralVeers]

Doesn't matter what the symbol means. The pertinent thing according to the rulebook is whether or not the tap symbol is on the card.

[ChikyzRos]

No, no. It is important to know what the tap symbols mean! Early cards didn't have it and that rule still the same :)

[Pimp Master J]

Publicado originalmente por Stormchaser:

I can see how that can be confusing but crewing does ignore summoning sickness.

I'm not a fan of vehicles as a mechanic mostly from a common sense point of view.

1) If a creature cannot attack or use its abilities because of summoning sickness, it should be even less able to attack operating complicated machines.

This is the problem, you say common sense but from the wrong train of thought. "Crew" does not mean the creature is "driving" behind the wheel of your vehicle. In Magic you are using that creatures toughness and transferring that to power your vehicle.

2) If the pilot is killed in response to Crewing or at any other time before damage phase, the vehicle should stop. But they keep attacking on their own for some obscure reason. You can declare an empty vehicle as "attacking". Likewise, when a creature is killed, it can quickly crew a vehicle "in response to dying" and then the empty vehicle can attack or block later. How dumb is that?

It's not dumb if you imagine that creature is not physically driving. It's power is transferred like an instant.

3) Leviathans or plants or whatever clearly inappropriate "pilots" flying little helicopters is simply the stupidest idea MtG has ever seen.

Again, they aren't pilots or drivers. They aren't physically attached to the vehicle. Vehicles are operated by the Player, using the creatures' toughness.

Game mechanics can always bend reality a tiny little bit if it makes for fun and good gameplay. Vehicles, however, aren't all that fun or necessary and they don't make any sense whatsoever.

Magic, as a whole, if you treat it in literal or physical terms, will disappoint you as a game if that's your take. It's fantasy spellcasting.