Wanderer doesn't play any special.

[SquareDildo]

So I've played the three classes for a while. I know CK is not meant to be a class-based game. But playing Wanderer feels the least unique.

Other classes have powers which support certain playstyles.

Any class can cut its way past enemies and kill everyone in sight. But Bully's special powers encourage this. Taunt makes enemies aware, debuffs them and gives you might. Killer gives skill in all weapons. The upgrades also make him kill enemies quicker. You can build a sneaky bully, or a spellcasting bully, but your powers will be wasted.

Poet gets bonuses to spellcasting. Energy reduction makes instant casting affordable. He can even recycle surplus books. Really, this class is pushed towards spellcasting.

Wanderer is supposed to be the fast, sneaky one. He's fast, sure, but it's hard to count it as an advantage in a game where careful exploration is key. The darkness doesn't make it any easier. And frankly, Wanderer's abilities hardly change the way I play! After a while I stopped bothering with detecting potions, even enemies. I can see them ahead anyway. "Radar" ability is almost pointless except for speedruns. Any class can peak into a room carefully and see where the dangers are. There will be no rooms that require Instinct ability to know where to land, because that would frustrate other classes. So it ends up only slightly shortening the time you need to explore. It would be different if level layouts were more open and there were more paths to go, but what you do is chiefly decided by the shape of the maze. So what if you detect a potion or a grumbul ? You will still have to fight him if he's on the way. You can still skip him if he isn't.

And what's not helping is that rooms can just be memorized. The one shaped like a letter "H" with a double horizontal bar has traps and spikes in it. The one with the underwater tunnel has pirannas and a grumble at the end.

Two highest starting stats of a Wanderer are Speed and Intelligence. I think those are the weakest stats. Speed for the reasons stated above - you only need it for faster weapon swinging. Intelligence by itself only increases vision range and energy recharge rate. You're a poor caster, so you don't have many ways of using energy. Mostly mounting enemies, Air Dash and Double Jump. Yes, Speed and Int boons can be nice, but that's not an incentive to stack Int or Speed items.

Wanderer perks are often redundant. They are absoultely not synergistic like Bully's. Tracking becomes redundant once you get Empathy, and even some Wanderers start with it. Map scroll would be much better on a class WITHOUT tracking and Instinct. The same goes for lantern.

So in practice, Wander is a class defined mostly by:
- lack of Bully talents
- lack of Poet talents
- difficulty in increasing Str and Mag
It's a challenge class with no real advantages.

I predict that, unless reworked, Wanderers will take either the warrior or spellslinger path. Wanderer special powers don't enable anything else.

Finally, rather than having lackluster perks like Mighty Stomp, I'd make Speed passively boost damage of more rogueish, situational ways of killing. Like the classic Mario stomp, beating enemies with an item (roll + attack), thrown items. That way a character could focus on Speed increases, and would play differently than the fighter and the spellslinger.

[Kazeto]

Hmm ... good points, those.

Although the perks are still being done, so there may very well be something that will change the situation.

And I think that it would be really nice if Wanderers had a special move that allowed them to do something more than the other classes with the boots they have, once the class is fully upgraded. That would make them unique for the late-game.

[CryptMade]

well, I thought wanderer is the best class in the game for now...

[SquareDildo]

Originally posted by Cryptmade:

well, I thought wanderer is the best class in the game for now...

And why ?

[SquareDildo]

You know, I just realized something.

Wanderer might possibly be fixed by changing the level generator rather than Wanderer itself. In my opinion current level generator often doesn't give player enough alternate paths. The idea is, with more alternate paths and non-linear levels, players can make more decisions about their path. If there are two ways to go, each of them blocked by a Grumbul, and Wanderer senses a potion or a chest behind one of them, Wanderer has an advantage.

Or one path has nothing behind the first grumbul, while second has... 3 more grumbuls!

More optional one way passages could help. All rooms in a level can be connected via two way routes, but additional one way routes could exist. If Wanderer more or less knew what's behind a one way path, he could decide if it's worth it. Maybe there's an undead warrior ?

[Foshi]

Wanderer was the second class i used to beat the twins. The attack speed was ridiculous and being able to quicky run to my next enemy and slice them to bits with the heightened speed gave them no chance to react. I do agree while using a wanderer I barely use the 'sense' skill, though surely some people creative enough have found good reasons to use it.

[SquareDildo]

How about UT-style translocator ? You throw and item, then can teleport where it falls. That would be nice for avoididing enemies and traps. An upgrade could enable telefragging.

If not - one more magic item idea.

[Kazeto]

Originally posted by SquareDildo:

How about UT-style translocator ? You throw and item, then can teleport where it falls. That would be nice for avoididing enemies and traps. An upgrade could enable telefragging.

If not - one more magic item idea.

I think that, if anything, that could be a nice alternative for the Haste spell, even if not a fully-fitting one. Something not unlike the teleport spells, but working not immediately but with a delay of sorts, like this:

A spell that spawns a pickable item on the ground that either teleports you to where you throw it (and possibly deals damage if you teleport onto an enemy, though I presume this one could rely on you pressing the attack button a moment in advance because that can be done) or can serve as a point of return if you cast the spell again while the item is still laying there. The charged version (because yay for Poets) could potentially also deal some area-of-effect damage when you are being teleported to it, because that would be a nice party opener, so to say.

This could be used to access places you normally couldn't, which is what Haste is for, and allow you to move quicker and surprise enemies, which again is what Haste is for, but it would also make it possible to get out of situations where you get screwed up by room generation: just carry the item with you, drop it before going down a hatch that might or might not be a trap, and use the spell to get back if it indeed is.

So yeah, as a spell, I'm all for SquareDildo's idea. It seems fun, and usable.

[Thorax]

I often only use wanderer for the sole purpose of the sense skill. While I ahrdly use track, the sense makes it easier for many types of situations. Often I use my wanderer much like a ninja and use shadow cloak and teleport frequently. Having the sense skill and and knowing literally exactly where your teleporting, can make levels go by in less than a minute. Say I only have one chunk of health left, I could easily get myself to the leveling orb before an issue ever presents itself.
And don't get me wrong, I love killing stuff and smacking down on some grumbuls, I've just found it much more effecient to frequently know exactly what I'm walking into, how to bypass or provoke, and how to use my terrain to the highest advantage. Sure it makes it a little harder with the bosses, but I've made it past the tank and the twins tons upon tons of times; more with a Wanderer than any Bully or Poet. So I think maybe it just keys into each persons unique play style. Hence why this game is so fantastic!

[Knochenonkel]

just found this thread. those are some nice things you were pointing out and I also think the wanderer's special ability is not the best atm, your argumentation nailed it.
the devs should have a look here.

[Plagued Frost]

Maybe tracking could be changed for enemies... as in, when tracking a live enemy, as separate little screen would pop up showing the enemies path... or when tracking an enemy type the enemy type will be represented on the map by red dots...
Or
Maybe instead of only increasing your vision, mayve it could also focus on reducing the vision of the enemy.
. Running past the enemies at high speeds will make them confused, as from their persepective all they will see is a blur
. Maybe the kid could have the ability to wall jump, or do something athletic like instead of rolling they will do flips
. If that's too much to program, maybe the solution could be as simple as starting the kids off with both Stampede and Free Run
. Maybe using tracking right next to enemies will blind them
. Maybe they will be given the ability to climb walls and cellings, and then dive down on enemies (Arkham Night style)


These are just ideas on things that could fix the Wanderer delema... maybe their horrible ideas... Hope I helped atleast a bit...

[SquareDildo]

Originally posted by Thorax:

shadow cloak and teleport

So maybe Sense skill should be put on a spellcaster class ? Call him "Cultist".

[Plagued Frost]

I think I got it...

What makes Bullies special?
Their amazing Skill with Weapons, Debuffing and Power. Leveling up to a killer, basically lets you gain an incredible special (decapitation) which in other cases would need a weapon with a special stat (rendering), or if not it would cost 1 skill point. You get 5 weapon skills which would normally cost 5 points, and you would get an upgrade to your stunning ability that causes debuffing basically mixing a strenght lv. up and a spell (slow, etc...) 2+ points
That's a whopping 8+ points (meaning you would have to lc. up 7 times), for 2...

What makes Poets special?
Their incredible Skill with Tomes, Spell Aiming and Decreasing Mana Cost and Magic Cap. Leveling up to just Lv. 2 gives you a charge ability to all tomes, basically a 7 point cost for 1...

What makes Wanderer special?
Well it can track and can increase vision for a few seconds, and its blinding Speed. That's just a bit of an upside (and I'm talking about the Speed)... so what can be done to increase it's potency... Well, we need something that would seem OP, but make it just balence enough to constitute it being in the game...

Bow and Arrow-
This is something I thought would be increably usefull for the Wamderer...
When I think of a speed class in any game I think (Bow and Arrow), when I think of hunters, trackers, WANDERERS... I think BOW AND ARROW...
... and this is how I think it could work without being too OP...
When Up+V is pressed (at Level 1: Tracker), it would summon a bow and a magic quever with infinate arrows, it would replace the weapon/sheild in the kid's inventory, pressing Up+V again would switch back to weapon/sheild, and maybe there could be a cool effect where the bow gets incinerated by blue flame (like when a tome is used up), These arrows would only do 1 damage if tapped on (short range), 2 damage if held (med. range) and 2-3 damage if held longer (long range, 3 damage would basically be a crit hit). When holding on to an edge holding the attack button and pressing the opposite dirrection will allow you to shot in the opposite dirrection. When the boon Dipper is activated, you can dip 3-10 arrows can be dipped...
Lv. 2-
. Makes Arrows Strong, meaning that when they are shot at walls, the player can jump off them (Like spears in Volgar the Viking) and making tapping damage go from 1 to 1-2, hold damage go from 2 to 2-3...
. Adds a line of sight to your arrows (Trajectory)
. Adds Smoke Arrows (Down+V)- Explode on contact with envirnent and make a blinding smoke cloud. No damage to enemy on contact
. Adds Grappling Arrows (Downx2+V)- When shot to a surface, the rope can either be pulled press C and walk/run the opposite way, attached to a surface, press C and which ever dirrection the object/surface you want it to be attached to. 1 damage at best to enemies. This would allow you to tether things together, when a rope is attached to two surfaces it can be walked/runned on if on top and grapped on if on bottom. When you are holding on to the edge and aiming in the opposite dirrection the rope will automatically be connected to the edge. Ropes can bbe broken with mighty stomp, or when hit 3+ times

Lv. 3-
. Makes arrows Brutal and Spiritual- in addiition to them being stong, the arrows have a critical cahnce of decapitation (Head Shot) and when enemies try and pull out arrows they might fail. When held the arrow will eventually be imbued with two of either poison, ice, green fire or lightning.
. Explosive/Trap Arrows (Downx3+V)- These arrows actaully have a limit and will be replenished by, killing enemies? When and object/surface is hit the arrow will emit gas warning enemies to run and then explode, arrows can be thrown, so if a grumbul is hit they will most likely try and pull out the arrow and throw it back. This arrow would do about 1-2 damage alone

Adding a new skill 1+ skill point, adding a 3 new upgrade to said skill 3+, adding three addition upgrades again 3+... If tracking was counted in it would be about +1 ( because tracking aint that useful)... so all n' all this would add up to a whopping 8 points, seems fair?


If that's too much to program... okay I think this 'll be simpler

Grappling Hook- Batman/Ronin/Just Cause 3 style. When boon Dipper is used grappling hook will also be dipped.

Lv 2-
. Gain Grappling Hook by pressing Up+V, will replace shield when active...
Hook onto enemies or objects, basically Hook arrows but unattachable to surfaces

Lv 3-
. Double Gappling Hook- Same as Lv 2... but now you have two. This would give you the ability to go onto a celling and stealthily wiat for Grumble's and bring them up to you, hanging them in the process
. Attach- Attach objects to the end of your grabling hook by pressing Down+V, and making your grappling hook a mace in all 'n all... 3+ Points

Or you could just give them grenades/bombs/ninja stars that do most of the things stated above... 5+ Points at best
Or you could give 'em an infinate stelath/eitheral ability and just call it a day... 4+ Points
Lv 2- Hold Dow+V for Stealth
Lv 3- Hold Down+V longer for etheral... for a short period of time
Or you could even just give them all speed boons at the begining... 4+ Points
__________________________________________________________________________

TL;DR


Bows and arrows- 8 Points for 2, bully status
Grappling Hook- 4 Points for 2, New better than nothing but no where near Poet or Bully
Bombs/Stars- 6+ Points for 2, okay but still lower than average
Stealth/Etheral 5 Points for 2- Below average and kinda' too OP at the same time, weird
Speed Boons- 6 Points for 2, It's okay but not really...

So that's what I think will help... I know this will take a long time to put in but... it'd be cool ta' see...

[Turtlestorm]

To be honest, after reading I certainly agree that the wanderer ability is a very pointless ability in most situations(Personally I never use it because I see no reason to) but the way you're saying speed is largely useless I certainly disagree to. I've tried many different styles of builds for melee(and of course magic, but that's irrelevant when speaking of speed) and I've always found speed first then damage 2nd for priorities to always work the best. It might be a matter of playstyle as I prefer rushing at a foe and stunlocking them to death due to high speed(which works on all but the largest of creatures(IE reaper+2nd boss fight) and I've always found that to be a very sound strategy. For wanderer I've always done speed, str, speed, str, def(disarm), luck(wellwished) then gone on my merry way slaughtering my way through the dungeon. The only things that manage to kill me anymore is burning damage because I just stunlock my way past anything.

Again though, I agree that the wanderer needs a new ability, as the current one just doesn't feel nearly impactful enough.

TL;DR

You underrate speed, and I agree on new ability.

[fat bitch]

I definitely agree that Wanderer's ability is useless and doesn't make them very interesting. Even if I'm dying and need a potion, I usually don't even bother activating the skill (especially with the wonky controls on gamepad). However, I think that their exclusive traits are very strong at the moment. Any character that starts with lucky boots can easily find overpowered gear in the first few levels along with escaping death and losing status effects early. Sneaky is by far my favorite trait in the game, since you can hide and take out enemies in single encounters with ease and draw enemies away from groups, or just avoid combat altogether. Pair it with trajectory or deft throw and you can tactically disarm or draw enemies from a distance. I enjoy using resourceful when I want to maintain a Byat bonus while getting a heal off, but I think its usefulness is diminished by the healing power of melted slime/goo and potatoes.

I also think that speed is one of the best stats (though luck is still my favorite). With enough speed you can simply dash through trapped rooms and sprint over 1-block gaps, and if you have a shield with an effect on it, you can rush down enemies in combat and gain an easy advantage. Once you've memorized rooms, speed is extremely fun to play with since you can rush through levels and gear up in a matter of minutes.

In regards to changing their ability, I think they should have an ability that either focuses on mobility or tactics. An ability to climb on ceilings for a duration of time, or the ability to take an item and hone it to increase its thrown damage, upgrading to allow weapons to be picked up in the hand and thrown, and gain bonus effects when tossing potions (e.g. allowing a potion to stay half-filled after striking an enemy to be thrown again). Or, the general concept of the Wanderer's current ability could be kept and they could be given the ability to either see the area around a thrown object, or scout an area with some kind of controllable "probe".

Regarding Plagued's idea, I don't think that Wanderer should be given an exclusive offensive option, since, paired with their strong traits, it would diminish other classes. Bows would work better as an item that can be acquired by any class, and any bonuses associated to them would be best as trainable skills from the ghost.

[Devmicco]

They aren't a class that is obviously powerful till you combine them with certain playstyles or
I'm not sure what I'd personally want to change up because making anything improved will basically just make the class overpowered right now. It'd have to be changed up in other ways to remain interesting.

I feel like indirect changes to the world would make the wanderer feel a lot better overall though, like being able to buy different tools at the shop or having new ways to trap or deal will enemies through speed and caution then later transitioning into this insane massive great axe wielder later on.