Imagine if a game came out where male villains kill prominent female heroes in degrading ways

[Swamp Fox]

A game comes out, for instance, using the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" name. In the game, Buffy gets her head run over with a car by a vampire who then takes a dump on her corpse.

Imagine the reaction.

[Cheeodon]

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Which scene in particular? I said people don't like bad written villains, I didn't state a scene. Bad writings bad writing, mate. Anyone can write a ♥♥♥♥ villain, but it takes a bit of actual writing talent to make a villain into an anti-hero and it actually mean something, or turn them into a protagonist. The point is to make a villain, not someone insufferable to the player.

I'm almost certain the scene in question they're referring to is Captain Boomerang's attempt to degrade the Flash by almost urinating on his corpse after the fight.

Oh I'm sure it is because its the prime example, But i'm looking at the cohesive whole, not just one strip of bad writing that was done for shock value and a "Look the idiot has a giant ♥♥♥♥" joke.

[PurpleTrain]

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Publicado originalmente por PurpleTrain:

Then why reply to me in the first place? We were talking about pissy boy boomer.

Because your factitious statement of "People shocked when villains do villainous stuff" is disingenuous on its face. Oh, look at all the fans Mr Freeze has. Boy, almost like he's a villain people like, despite doing villainous things. Because he's not an insufferable, poorly written character. Hm.

Umm It wasn't, it was directly quoting another comment, mentioning what boomer does.

Why do you keep wanting to talk about everything, but boomer, and his urinal habits?

[Cheeodon]

Publicado originalmente por PurpleTrain:

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Because your factitious statement of "People shocked when villains do villainous stuff" is disingenuous on its face. Oh, look at all the fans Mr Freeze has. Boy, almost like he's a villain people like, despite doing villainous things. Because he's not an insufferable, poorly written character. Hm.

Umm It wasn't, it was directly quoting another comment, mentioning what boomer does.

Why do you keep wanting to talk about everything, but boomer, and his urinal habits?

Because ya'll have no actual desire to discuss the scene in question and will simply fall back to "He's a villain so he does villainous things and that makes the scene totally okay and not terribly written!", so I feel no need to discuss it as it won't actually get an honest response.

[PurpleTrain]

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Publicado originalmente por PurpleTrain:

Umm It wasn't, it was directly quoting another comment, mentioning what boomer does.

Why do you keep wanting to talk about everything, but boomer, and his urinal habits?

Because ya'll have no actual desire to discuss the scene in question and will simply fall back to "He's a villain so he does villainous things and that makes the scene totally okay and not terribly written!", so I feel no need to discuss it as it won't actually get an honest response.

I did want to discuss it, I even asked you what was so badly written about it. You were the one that decided not to answer or discuss.

[Carpe x Noctem]

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

I'm almost certain the scene in question they're referring to is Captain Boomerang's attempt to degrade the Flash by almost urinating on his corpse after the fight.

Oh I'm sure it is because its the prime example, But i'm looking at the cohesive whole, not just one strip of bad writing that was done for shock value and a "Look the idiot has a giant ♥♥♥♥" joke.

That scene is not an example of bad writing. It's true to Captain Boomerang's character.

Later on, in the dialogue between the other members Boomerang even experiences remorse since he no longer has a nemesis and needs cheering up. Deadshot brings up Boomerang's time with the Rogues (group of Flash supervillains) which leads to Boomerang's sudden concern about not getting the word out that he killed the Flash or Mirror Master and Top would have their arses.

[Cheeodon]

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Oh I'm sure it is because its the prime example, But i'm looking at the cohesive whole, not just one strip of bad writing that was done for shock value and a "Look the idiot has a giant ♥♥♥♥" joke.

That scene is not an example of bad writing. It's true to Captain Boomerang's character.

Later on, in the dialogue between the other members Boomerang even experiences remorse since he no longer has a nemesis and needs cheering up. Deadshot brings up Boomerang's time with the Rogues (group of Flash supervillains) which leads to Boomerang's sudden concern about not getting the word out that he killed the Flash or Mirror Master and Top would have their arses.

So complementing his ♥♥♥♥ is in character for deadshot? Who wouldn't care. Or harley? who probably wouldn't care or would have made a joke about it, or king shark who absolutely shouldn't care? Being rude? sure I get that. Being crass ya right up boomerangs alley, at least this version of boomerang that has devolved completely into a backwater hick. Its still a poorly written scene for the sake of shock value and a ♥♥♥♥ joke. Waller not chastising them for getting on with it and letting them just loiter around flashes body, i don't think boomerang even took a momento (Even with the recurring gag of him cutting off fingers from the various "Heros", who only fail to kill the bad guys because of significant plot armor and poor writing, but thats an excuse that must be made when dealing with supers that are a-listers, against c-lister villains with guns I suppose. Gotta make *That* sacrifice in writing for the premise of the game to even work.)

There's no moment of morning from the rest of the squad, no *Thanks* for saving their life twice, nothing. Just a shock value moment and a ♥♥♥♥ joke, it has no emotional punch, and no payoff for the player.

Wonder womans death is probably the most impactful event in the game, and probably the only one played accurate because the two super-beings clashing would be a titanic showing, but compare the two death events. Wonder woman was just battling superman, she didn't care about the squad, was a ♥♥♥♥♥ to the squad most of the game, and gets this mournful death. But flash, who did save the twice, and has a general reputation within his rogues doesn't even get a thanks from *Deadshot*, deadshot. THe guy who hates villains and doesn't want to work with them, the guy whos a villain because he's a hitman with a code of morals. At the very least *Deadshot* should have said a silent thanks without the other squad members notice him, but instead we get..♥♥♥♥ joke. great.

To be clear, had the ♥♥♥♥ joke scene been cut and it had just been deadshot stopping Captain boomerang, that alone would have improved the quality at least a bit and defined deadshots character a bit more as the "Noble", which would fall in line with his actual personality. But they just had to get the big ♥♥♥♥ joke in there and steal any gravity the scene had.

[PurpleTrain]

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Oh I'm sure it is because its the prime example, But i'm looking at the cohesive whole, not just one strip of bad writing that was done for shock value and a "Look the idiot has a giant ♥♥♥♥" joke.

That scene is not an example of bad writing. It's true to Captain Boomerang's character.

Later on, in the dialogue between the other members Boomerang even experiences remorse since he no longer has a nemesis and needs cheering up. Deadshot brings up Boomerang's time with the Rogues (group of Flash supervillains) which leads to Boomerang's sudden concern about not getting the word out that he killed the Flash or Mirror Master and Top would have their arses.

This is some great information, thank you. It really does help having some people around here, who actually played the game, unlike most.

[Carpe x Noctem]

Publicado originalmente por Alice Ó Súileabháin:

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

That scene is not an example of bad writing. It's true to Captain Boomerang's character.

Later on, in the dialogue between the other members Boomerang even experiences remorse since he no longer has a nemesis and needs cheering up. Deadshot brings up Boomerang's time with the Rogues (group of Flash supervillains) which leads to Boomerang's sudden concern about not getting the word out that he killed the Flash or Mirror Master and Top would have their arses.

So complementing his ♥♥♥♥ is in character for deadshot? Who wouldn't care. Or harley? who probably wouldn't care or would have made a joke about it, or king shark who absolutely shouldn't care? Being rude? sure I get that. Being crass ya right up boomerangs alley, at least this version of boomerang that has devolved completely into a backwater hick. Its still a poorly written scene for the sake of shock value and a ♥♥♥♥ joke. Waller not chastising them for getting on with it and letting them just loiter around flashes body, i don't think boomerang even took a momento (Even with the recurring gag of him cutting off fingers from the various "Heros", who only fail to kill the bad guys because of significant plot armor and poor writing, but thats an excuse that must be made when dealing with supers that are a-listers, against c-lister villains with guns I suppose. Gotta make *That* sacrifice in writing for the premise of the game to even work.)

There's no moment of morning from the rest of the squad, no *Thanks* for saving their life twice, nothing. Just a shock value moment and a ♥♥♥♥ joke, it has no emotional punch, and no payoff for the player.

Wonder womans death is probably the most impactful event in the game, and probably the only one played accurate because the two super-beings clashing would be a titanic showing, but compare the two death events. Wonder woman was just battling superman, she didn't care about the squad, was a ♥♥♥♥♥ to the squad most of the game, and gets this mournful death. But flash, who did save the twice, and has a general reputation within his rogues doesn't even get a thanks from *Deadshot*, deadshot. THe guy who hates villains and doesn't want to work with them, the guy whos a villain because he's a hitman with a code of morals. At the very least *Deadshot* should have said a silent thanks without the other squad members notice him, but instead we get..♥♥♥♥ joke. great.

I don't see anything wrong with how Deadshot reacted to suddenly noticing the size of Boomer's manhood. Harley saluting it is in-character as well. There's also a line in game when you're on a streak as Captain Boomerang and Harley responds "Ooh, Captain B. is on the offensive! Godspeed, sir". King Shark comments about how it makes sense that Boomerang would be blessed with this since he is cursed otherwise. That is also in-character for Shark. He is endlessly fascinated by Boomerang. "Boomerang blurs the line between accident and strategy!"

[Sledge Hammer!]

Publicado originalmente por PurpleTrain:

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

That scene is not an example of bad writing. It's true to Captain Boomerang's character.

Later on, in the dialogue between the other members Boomerang even experiences remorse since he no longer has a nemesis and needs cheering up. Deadshot brings up Boomerang's time with the Rogues (group of Flash supervillains) which leads to Boomerang's sudden concern about not getting the word out that he killed the Flash or Mirror Master and Top would have their arses.

This is some great information, thank you. It really does help having some people around here, who actually played the game, unlike most.

While the hate campaign continues here, you'll find most of the 'discussions' are really bad faith arguments by non-game owners.

[PurpleTrain]

Publicado originalmente por Sledge Hammer!:

Publicado originalmente por PurpleTrain:

This is some great information, thank you. It really does help having some people around here, who actually played the game, unlike most.

While the hate campaign continues here, you'll find most of the 'discussions' are really bad faith arguments by non-game owners.

While I don't think it's a campaign, only a small handful of individuals.
I do find it strange that they can't even answer simple straightforward questions, when in the same post they try to sound like the expert on the topic.

[Lanzagranadas]

The only way I would care about a "Kill your heroes" game is if it has a story that actually makes you question the heroes' morals, look at things from a different point of view, and think that the villains actually have a point.

This whole thing about killing the heroes just because they were brainwashed off-screen by some evil lord and became evil so they must be killed is just lazy and dumb writing. These heroes are basically already dead since they're no longer themselves and they no longer represents the values they stood for.

Villains fighting to save the world from brainwashed former heroes that turned evil just because someone orders them to do it to reduce their sentences isn't even a proper villain story.

At the end it's basically bad guys doing the good guys' work because the good guys can't do it anymore. If I want to do the good guys work, I'd rather just play as the heroes themselves rather than a bunch of low-tier villains trying to replace them.

[unholyghost842]

Publicado originalmente por Lanzagranadas:

The only way I would care about a "Kill your heroes" game is if it has a story that actually makes you question the heroes' morals, look at things from a different point of view, and think that the villains actually have a point.

This whole thing about killing the heroes just because they were brainwashed off-screen by some evil lord and became evil so they must be killed is just lazy and dumb writing. These heroes are basically already dead since they're no longer themselves and they no longer represents the values they stood for.

Villains fighting to save the world from brainwashed former heroes that turned evil just because someone orders them to do it to reduce their sentences isn't even a proper villain story.

At the end it's basically bad guys doing the good guys' work because the good guys can't do it anymore. If I want to do the good guys work, I'd rather just play as the heroes themselves rather than a bunch of low-tier villains trying to replace them.

Again, imagine how much better a Red hood and outlaws game with the Dark Trinity gang would have been?

Heroes that are attached to major heroes but all represent elements taken to their extreme. Jason's war on crime being removing threats to the innocent from play unlike Bruce's supposed hypocrisy about not taking a life even if it saves more.
Artemis Grace's savagery being the natural product of an even more militant and outspoken branch of the Amazons.
Bizarro being all of the destructive force of Superman without the will power of brain power to hold it back.

Them fighting the justice league Trinity would be way more interesting

[Ilgoth]

Game can be put under lot of very legitimate criticism, and gender politics is the one you chose to roll with?

[pr1mus]

Publicado originalmente por Lanzagranadas:

The only way I would care about a "Kill your heroes" game is if it has a story that actually makes you question the heroes' morals, look at things from a different point of view, and think that the villains actually have a point.

there's some arguments to be made from that one After Hours video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd1sIwCLtIc

[unholyghost842]

Publicado originalmente por Carpe x Noctem:

Publicado originalmente por unholyghost842:

I mean... genuinely, yes.

Or just characters that aren't total irredeemable scumbags would be nice

If you actually play the game you would understand that all of the Suicide Squad members are not "total irredeemable scumbags" and while they may have been coerced by Waller to kill the brain-washed Justice League members to stop the invasion, they end up being unlikely anti-heroes.

I would say that Deadshot, Harley Quinn, and King Shark all have other sides to them which make them likable most of the time with Captain Boomerang being the only actual degenerate who is almost beyond rehabilitation -- but even he has his moments.

Lois Lane even puts it out there in one of her many broadcasts, "I know we're used to cheering on the other side but I don't need to tell you that things are not the same in Metropolis right now. Maybe permanently...".

Also there is a daily optional side activity where you can shoot down Carrier Drones in the sky that are abducting the remaining citizens of Metropolis and in doing so level a daily Care Package up to Legendary. This presents the ironic situation of the villains needing to save people for their own personal gain. They're doing it for the reward but it's still helping out.

I watched my friend play it, which admittedly isn't the same as playing it yourself. Sure. But I got the gist.

King Shark is the best character. Not that that's tough when everyone else is on a race for last place... deadshot is okay, kinda a non entity. He's there. But he's not really adding much beyond "I love my daughter, I'm angry I was taken from her"

But ... it's entirely his fault he was taken away from her? If there was another guy going around using his old handle (and doing more impressive shots than he does) then why go deal with him? Everyone thinks he's the og. That is basically a godsend! You're free!
But no, instead he goes and risks death to kill him? Because how dare he use his old contract killer name!

Harley is arkham Harley apparently and therefore an unrepentant child killer so I don't care what she's up to. She doesn't even show any remorse in this game about what she did. Writing it off as a regrettable phase like ???
Girl, this isn't you getting bangs for a while. You murdered a five year old child and her father after extorting millions from him! Making her Arkham Harley removes any sympathy for her. They didn't do anything to redeem her in this game. Her not wanting to catch criminal's for task force X doesn't mean anything.