MUST DOs FOR MASANG

[aly]

There's no way around it. There are some absolute must-dos for this game to survive and flourish.

Anti-Lead - We can't be required to lead shots in 2024 and onwards. Hit registers and sounds not being legitimate will simply kill the game.

Pay 2 win removal - Pay 2 dress is more than welcome if that means the game can flourish. Pay 2 win will likely kill the game.

Anti-cheat - Unfortunately, a GOOD and effective program and strategies are required. Masang can't simply put on a general anti-cheat and call it a day. That simply won't cut it anymore. Furthermore, you'll need additional strategies that compliment a good anti-cheat. Hardware blocking, cheaters queues, long matchmaking times for cheaters, etc. Essentially make cheating un-fun, but without explicitly notifying the cheater has been caught.

Match-making - Gunz CANNOT have veterans of 10 years facing off against newcomers regularly. They need to be placed in their own ELOs as soon as possible.

[weewoo]

I agree with everything you said except the part about match-making. The beauty of the game since its inception was the fact that you would get stomped in clan war if you weren't even remotely decent at the game. In GunZ, you can't even dream of consistently winning clan wars if you haven't already lost 100 times prior. Interestingly, anecdotally from my own experience and most others, the most progress in skill was made when playing against people way above our weight class. Everyone knows that a Free Channel hero, no matter how many randoms they kill in Garden, will still get stomped in the competitive scene. The question is do you want to lean into the casual aspect or the e-Sports competitive aspect of GunZ? I don't know about you but nobody is going to want to watch a live-stream of page 13 Mansion quest.

[Zalibidas]

agree with all except antilead. antilead as it is, is a problem that creates another problem. at around 60 ping or under, both are pretty well the same. at over, you start running into problems with both. with lead, you start to need to predict more while being more snappy with your shots. the higher the ping dif, the easier it is for the one being shot to avoid the shot. you counter the predicting with flick shots but as ping gets high the more you need to predict ahead. antilead has a problem where your hits will register, but it becomes impossible to predict how shots will hit you as ping rises. it basically swaps the advantages. lets say you fight 200 ping and you hide behind a wall in a 1on1 fight. you are behind cover. then you die anyway because on their screen you were still in view. it turns gunz into a more spammy less predictive game and to a lot of likely returning players... thatll be an instant leave. it isnt the gunz they played and loved from igunz and ijji. given both of them having big annoying flaws, id argue lead has a better chance of being around longer to anyone not a pserver player. having to lead is annoying, but whats more annoying is getting shot from behind 2 walls and a train by a 350 ping player from across the map

[weewoo]

Messaggio originale di Zalibidas:

agree with all except antilead. antilead as it is, is a problem that creates another problem. at around 60 ping or under, both are pretty well the same. at over, you start running into problems with both. with lead, you start to need to predict more while being more snappy with your shots. the higher the ping dif, the easier it is for the one being shot to avoid the shot. you counter the predicting with flick shots but as ping gets high the more you need to predict ahead. antilead has a problem where your hits will register, but it becomes impossible to predict how shots will hit you as ping rises. it basically swaps the advantages. lets say you fight 200 ping and you hide behind a wall in a 1on1 fight. you are behind cover. then you die anyway because on their screen you were still in view. it turns gunz into a more spammy less predictive game and to a lot of likely returning players... thatll be an instant leave. it isnt the gunz they played and loved from igunz and ijji. given both of them having big annoying flaws, id argue lead has a better chance of being around longer to anyone not a pserver player. having to lead is annoying, but whats more annoying is getting shot from behind 2 walls and a train by a 350 ping player from across the map

I wouldn't say 60 ping is the same as anti-lead, more like anything under 20-30 ping. Also one thing you failed to mention was that we did not learn how to lead our shots because we wanted to, it was purely out of necessity due to P2P connections. Many of us veterans have saved everyone else the time and effort on the experiment, anti-lead is just better. Trust the opinions of those who played through both eras for almost 2 decades. I would actually argue that having lead in addition to learning K-Style mechanics would turn new players away. For modern games.... 'Hit' should equal 'Hit'.

[RazrShoota]

To be realistic: Newcomers are way less likely to be driven to get good at this game compared to back in the day. They will probably get stomped a few times and give up just because new generation habits.

[Zalibidas]

Messaggio originale di weewoo:

Messaggio originale di Zalibidas:

agree with all except antilead. antilead as it is, is a problem that creates another problem. at around 60 ping or under, both are pretty well the same. at over, you start running into problems with both. with lead, you start to need to predict more while being more snappy with your shots. the higher the ping dif, the easier it is for the one being shot to avoid the shot. you counter the predicting with flick shots but as ping gets high the more you need to predict ahead. antilead has a problem where your hits will register, but it becomes impossible to predict how shots will hit you as ping rises. it basically swaps the advantages. lets say you fight 200 ping and you hide behind a wall in a 1on1 fight. you are behind cover. then you die anyway because on their screen you were still in view. it turns gunz into a more spammy less predictive game and to a lot of likely returning players... thatll be an instant leave. it isnt the gunz they played and loved from igunz and ijji. given both of them having big annoying flaws, id argue lead has a better chance of being around longer to anyone not a pserver player. having to lead is annoying, but whats more annoying is getting shot from behind 2 walls and a train by a 350 ping player from across the map

I wouldn't say 60 ping is the same as anti-lead, more like anything under 20-30 ping. Also one thing you failed to mention was that we did not learn how to lead our shots because we wanted to, it was purely out of necessity due to P2P connections. Many of us veterans have saved everyone else the time and effort on the experiment, anti-lead is just better. Trust the opinions of those who played through both eras for almost 2 decades. I would actually argue that having lead in addition to learning K-Style mechanics would turn new players away. For modern games.... 'Hit' should equal 'Hit'.

the first part of what you are saying is pointless to even bring up though. i explained the downsides of both. you learn to lead or get shot behind objects by laggers. both are awful. one you can get used to and control. the other.. you can't. all there is to it.

[Fatal † Existence]

Not sure what the player base count is the official server for korea, but i obviously don't hold high hopes for this game to have a mass audience ever again. I am glad if it's ever released on steam i mean Gunz 2 server is some how still up and running and it's been dead for years literately maybe 1-3 people get on it a day. The original Gunz will always have it's fan base and that fan base will always keep this game partly active as a competitive game.

A lot of the reason this game will never be big is it's very old i know some games are old and are considered classics and have a high player count, but this game is so unique in it's own right. During it's last year it was never inviting to a newer player they either get trashed on 100 times and quit uninstall never learn or even deem it worth learning and only the few will stay get trashed on and learn and have to spend along time learning because the learning curve. It's basically gameplay gatekeeping so i would be glad it's just released and expect it the way it's always been the way it is on a private sever in terms of player count.

I don't think this company cares enough to consider those good ideas you've listed although i still hope they will. I know some people who created cheats for this game and they basically said it was one of the easiest games to exploit hopefully that has changed because hacking that went on for months is what got rid of a lot of the players during aeria games.

I think some p servers did a lot better than how ijji/aeria handled cheaters, leading, even changing fov and customization . a bit of P2w will probably always be there i mean if you consider prem meds also to be p2w cause those used to sell monthly . I wonder how the kick system will work now cause you can basically troll kick anyone from a game.

[Dreadful]

I actually disagree about anti-lead. This game already is very apm focused and if you throw current skill anti-lead into the mix than the new/returning (The Majority) will get 2-3 shot way too many times and end up quitting in less than a week. I enjoy antilead but on a official server level, the game engine is from 2003 You will be seeing people using shotbot/aimlock software I'd rather deal with Ucers and go back to Lead. Skill matchmaking wouldn't even help much people would just smurf let's be real we don't want skill based matchmaking in gunz that's just not it.

[Nikana Drakgoon]

Messaggio originale di Zalibidas:

agree with all except antilead. antilead as it is, is a problem that creates another problem. at around 60 ping or under, both are pretty well the same. at over, you start running into problems with both. with lead, you start to need to predict more while being more snappy with your shots. the higher the ping dif, the easier it is for the one being shot to avoid the shot. you counter the predicting with flick shots but as ping gets high the more you need to predict ahead. antilead has a problem where your hits will register, but it becomes impossible to predict how shots will hit you as ping rises. it basically swaps the advantages. lets say you fight 200 ping and you hide behind a wall in a 1on1 fight. you are behind cover. then you die anyway because on their screen you were still in view. it turns gunz into a more spammy less predictive game and to a lot of likely returning players... thatll be an instant leave. it isnt the gunz they played and loved from igunz and ijji. given both of them having big annoying flaws, id argue lead has a better chance of being around longer to anyone not a pserver player. having to lead is annoying, but whats more annoying is getting shot from behind 2 walls and a train by a 350 ping player from across the map

Extremely True. I second this. Lead makes the game more fair because both you and your opps can actually see what's coming. This creates an environment requiring prediction not just on where bullets will land but trying to out-guess who will move where and what strategic moves and placements you can make to put your opps into the position you want them to be in. It's basically chess at 1000x speed with lead. Without lead it's just a who can aim better game with unfair advantages for those with extreme ping.

[Gabe Ate My Zombies]

Please don't introduce anti-lead. It's the ultimate anti-cheat. You're also inviting people to lag their machines to get an unfair advantage. It's also fun and part of the experience and makes movement much more important than aim, which is how it should be.

[ProjectXII]

Messaggio originale di Nikana Drakgoon:

Messaggio originale di Zalibidas:

agree with all except antilead. antilead as it is, is a problem that creates another problem. at around 60 ping or under, both are pretty well the same. at over, you start running into problems with both. with lead, you start to need to predict more while being more snappy with your shots. the higher the ping dif, the easier it is for the one being shot to avoid the shot. you counter the predicting with flick shots but as ping gets high the more you need to predict ahead. antilead has a problem where your hits will register, but it becomes impossible to predict how shots will hit you as ping rises. it basically swaps the advantages. lets say you fight 200 ping and you hide behind a wall in a 1on1 fight. you are behind cover. then you die anyway because on their screen you were still in view. it turns gunz into a more spammy less predictive game and to a lot of likely returning players... thatll be an instant leave. it isnt the gunz they played and loved from igunz and ijji. given both of them having big annoying flaws, id argue lead has a better chance of being around longer to anyone not a pserver player. having to lead is annoying, but whats more annoying is getting shot from behind 2 walls and a train by a 350 ping player from across the map

Extremely True. I second this. Lead makes the game more fair because both you and your opps can actually see what's coming. This creates an environment requiring prediction not just on where bullets will land but trying to out-guess who will move where and what strategic moves and placements you can make to put your opps into the position you want them to be in. It's basically chess at 1000x speed with lead. Without lead it's just a who can aim better game with unfair advantages for those with extreme ping.

so you are saying what is considered skill based in this game is shooting air and calling that having good aim?

[ProjectXII]

Messaggio originale di Gabe Ate My Zombies:

Please don't introduce anti-lead. It's the ultimate anti-cheat. You're also inviting people to lag their machines to get an unfair advantage. It's also fun and part of the experience and makes movement much more important than aim, which is how it should be.

lag does not interfere with antilead function... no matter hjow bad someones connection is, when the game detects death from direct hits the game kills them, the game doesnt wait for their connections to register the shots... thats the beauty of anti lead... it eliminates the biggest ussue within the game which is bad ping. you cant tell me that having good aim and a hit = a hit is considered "cheating". if you think raw skill aim is worse than shooting thin air and praying for a hit is fun then youre just not built for shooter games.... hits should always register hits, to say otherwise is pure absurdity. accurate good aim is not "cheating" just because we are not relying on shooting air for a kill.

[Gabe Ate My Zombies]

Messaggio originale di ProjectXII:

Messaggio originale di Gabe Ate My Zombies:

Please don't introduce anti-lead. It's the ultimate anti-cheat. You're also inviting people to lag their machines to get an unfair advantage. It's also fun and part of the experience and makes movement much more important than aim, which is how it should be.

lag does not interfere with antilead function... no matter hjow bad someones connection is, when the game detects death from direct hits the game kills them, the game doesnt wait for their connections to register the shots... thats the beauty of anti lead... it eliminates the biggest ussue within the game which is bad ping. you cant tell me that having good aim and a hit = a hit is considered "cheating". if you think raw skill aim is worse than shooting thin air and praying for a hit is fun then youre just not built for shooter games.... hits should always register hits, to say otherwise is pure absurdity. accurate good aim is not "cheating" just because we are not relying on shooting air for a kill.

I played the game on iGunZ and ijji for almost a decade.

I think you're missing the point of what I was saying, and let's forget about cheating/hacking for a second. The game's netcode was programmed like this: client side has to be hit on their screen, while the peer to peer nature of how connections worked in the game meant that updating player position to other players would mean that if you shot at someone with 150 ping, you would need to lead slightly ahead of them in order to actually do damage. This meant that movement was extremely important, and it consistently kept you from being shot if you were able to move well.

Apart from that, melee stuns you slightly, which means that in melee duels, you'll be getting knocked around by seemingly nothing as you try to fight someone, not to mention them using sword anim cancels when up close up with guns whacking you when you're clearly out of range of them on your screen.

It's a bad idea. You can't use an aimbot if you only code one to shoot at a player position, making them much harder to create. There WAS hacking, of course, in the original, but these were blatant and obvious things like using Massive every frame, god mode, noclip, etc. but even then you could kill those players with ledge kills. I have a fond memory of juggling a god mode hacker for a solid 5 minutes before he left the server.

[Belaslav]

Please don't remove anti-lead D: for me it was one of those charming old school components.

[Nine]

Some tough topics here.
+Paying for cosmetic only items has proven to be a massive cash cow. There's no need for power boosts in a game this competitive. People will pay big to pay to dress. Clan mates try to match their outfits.

+Anti cheat is a great idea

~Skill based match making is a tough one. I would love to envision a system where two clans within a very wide skill gap can get matched, with either one having the chance to pass on the match due to either the other team just being way to deadly, or the deadly team potentially losing a massively outsized amount of points. Kind of gives the option to risk playing in or out of your bracket, some player agency. Just a rough outline of what could be an epic system. I recognize the thousand holes in it as I have it currently laid out.

~Anti-Lead. AHH. I love leading. It opens the game up to some awesome movement and fakeout opportunities. Without lead, if you aren't doing max DPS you're losing. Movement can be foolish.

That being said, we absolutely need anti-lead. This game dies if a new player sees "hit" 50 times on their screen but has done 0 damage, thats it the games dead. At least with anti-lead a tumbler/primitive dasher with amazing aim can body a veteran who's missing or being too flowery with their movement.

[Mindflower]

Matchmaking killed the social aspect of online multiplayer. Keep the lobby system as is. They should change the CW system to be a bit different though so you can't queue dodge and win trade.