Has anyone done any testing of urban combat?

[Bulletpoint]

I'm getting the feeling that my German infantry is just getting swept aside by Soviets when inside towns. They're not just losing, they are getting crushed almost without a fight.

Shouldn't I have a good advantage defending in urban terrain? It seems my guys are barely even shooting back as the Soviets just run through town chucking grenades left and right and gunning down my defenders.

I know Soviets often have an SMG advantage, but still, it seems my guys are barely even trying to fight.

However, during a campaign, there is fog of war, and it can be difficult to know if my troops are losing because they don't fight well, or simply because the Soviets have way more troops.

Has any of you methodically tested out urban combat to find out what works and what doesn't?

Especially @Archibaldthe1 maybe you have some insights?

[archibaldthe1]

Your best bet is either Toni or Battleshipfree99, I’ve never gotten that far.
From what I recall, one of Toni’s observation was that from visibility perspective, houses didn’t offer much of a shelter, and tankers were able to spot non-firing troops with relative ease.

You could always turn on “always show enemy” if you wanted to see what the enemy is doing. It does have performance implication though, since now every single enemy model is on the screen.

[alexandreagrg]

If I'm not mistaken, some time ago there was a change regarding making it easier to see troops hidden inside buildings.

[Sons Of]

Germany never did good in close quarters. There's a reason they lost Stalingrad. Logistic issues aside, German troops excel by good placement of machine gunner. Plus, soviet guns go PPSH

[Sons Of]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

Your best bet is either Toni or Battleshipfree99, I’ve never gotten that far.
From what I recall, one of Toni’s observation was that from visibility perspective, houses didn’t offer much of a shelter, and tankers were able to spot non-firing troops with relative ease.

You could always turn on “always show enemy” if you wanted to see what the enemy is doing. It does have performance implication though, since now every single enemy model is on the screen.

There's a reason why Germans rarely entrenched inside of houses exactly for the reason of them being too structurally weak and often being the choice of a tankers itchy trigger finger to fire a HE shell through. - it does look cinematic though.

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Leys Kilian:

Germany never did good in close quarters. There's a reason they lost Stalingrad. Logistic issues aside, German troops excel by good placement of machine gunner. Plus, soviet guns go PPSH

Nope, it's stereotype. German 51st Corps (main body to attack into Stalingrad city, part of 6th Army) almost secured the whole city, even though they were short of manpower before entering it. The fight in Stalingrad city lasted too long only because the Germans failed to cut off Soviet reinforcements across Volga (also due to lack of manpower).

And the "wunderwaffe" PPsh. It's quite strange why SMG successors all have lower rate of fire if PPsh had proved to be "the master of CQB".

Originally posted by Leys Kilian:

There's a reason why Germans rarely entrenched inside of houses ...

Historically speaking, Germans encourage their troops to fortify stone houses, and to dig communication trenches between such strongholds.


To OP, please provide some more details about the situation. For example, are you dug into trenches or are you dug into houses? What's the lighting condition (too dark for observation)?

Most wooden houses in GTMF are not bullet proof so unfavorable for defense.
Stone/brick houses are very stiff against small arms fire and most are 2 or 3 storeys (offer good observation), perfect strongholds.
Trenches are dug into earth, so observation is mostly interfered by foliage.

Typical urban engagement distance in GTMF is about 200-300m. Thus, a defense in depth, with mutual support among squad strongholds, is less likely to be overran. (2-3 storey brick house is essential in such a defense as it can support many other squads in a wider area).


My premature guess is that OP has deployed his squads without mutual support, so his troops were pinned by PPsh+DP and couldn't fire back, nor could other squads provide covering fire.

[Merc]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Most wooden houses in GTMF are not bullet proof so unfavorable for defense.
Stone/brick houses are very stiff against small arms fire and most are 2 or 3 storeys (offer good observation), perfect strongholds.
Trenches are dug into earth, so observation is mostly interfered by foliage.

Thanks so much for this small but very clear urban fighting guide. I really suffered a lot recenly in defence. And lost a lot of troops due to a lack of knowledge in my first large 18-turn campaign in Stepanovka-Marinovka. Managed to win it ultimately, but the casualties were abysmal.

Could you also tell how many squads can hold such 2-3 store buildings for max fire efficency?

[Bulletpoint]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

To OP, please provide some more details about the situation. For example, are you dug into trenches or are you dug into houses? What's the lighting condition (too dark for observation)?

Most wooden houses in GTMF are not bullet proof so unfavorable for defense.
Stone/brick houses are very stiff against small arms fire and most are 2 or 3 storeys (offer good observation), perfect strongholds.
Trenches are dug into earth, so observation is mostly interfered by foliage.

Typical urban engagement distance in GTMF is about 200-300m. Thus, a defense in depth, with mutual support among squad strongholds, is less likely to be overran. (2-3 storey brick house is essential in such a defense as it can support many other squads in a wider area).


My premature guess is that OP has deployed his squads without mutual support, so his troops were pinned by PPsh+DP and couldn't fire back, nor could other squads provide covering fire.

My post was not based on a single instance, but about a pattern I've noticed over time. It doesn't seem to matter much how I deploy infantry inside towns - if I dig them in, if I put them inside houses, if I keep them in command and control, how I support them, etc. The end result seems to be the same: Enemy infantry basically just runs straight through town, nearly unopposed, since my troops will rarely ever fire at them even when actively spotting them.

But the case in point here is the village of Korotich from the Against the Tide DLC. There are very few places with LOS out of the village, and especially now with the new restrictions on how to deploy (which I really like!) it's become even more challenging, because I can't just "teleport" my infantry outside of the town during deployment to let them sit on that hill on the west of town. So, depending on how the game decides to split up the battlefield, I often have to fight inside the village. And it just seems like my guys are asleep.

If they were getting suppressed by PPSH fire, I would expect them to be cowering, but they seem to be feeling alright, apart from not wanting to fight. Their experience and motivation levels are decent.

So, TLDR: I was just wondering if somebody tested this out. Defending inside a village should be a big bonus to defence IMO, but it seems the opposite in this game at the moment.

[Zephyr]

In the game the soviet have traditionally an advantage most of the time due to better grenade loadout and/or KS bottles +heavy use of SMGs. The germans often lack good grenade loadout and especially something to turn almost any ingame building into a burning death trap (the KS loadout has been changed now in many operations I think).
The SMGs give the soviet another very good option against the wooden houses in most sttlements. As already mentioned such houses are not exactly bullet proof.

The best option is indeed a layered defense with multiple lines. Houses have also the problem that they do not always have windows where you would need them. When a unit cannot look or fire in the enemy approach direction then the house was a bad choice :).
Occupying multiple houses in several lines can alleviate this. Against tanks any house will mostly do, when there is enemy infantry I would always prefer dug trenches compared to wooden houses, they are much better.

Stone or brick houses are obviously the best choice for defense, but often they will be near or on strategic key points and therefore the AI will mostly just bomb them into oblivion, again leading to death traps.

But in summary, if there is a good visibility towards enemy approach and a distance of 200-400 m you can inflict a lot of losses as germans against the soviet. It is best not to let the enemy infantry actually enter the settlement, but to use the houses at the settlement fringe as makeshift strongholds. In case that fails have a second line (possibly third) in the settlement with as good field of view/fire as possible.

[Bulletpoint]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

In the game the soviet have traditionally an advantage most of the time due to better grenade loadout and/or KS bottles +heavy use of SMGs. The germans often lack good grenade loadout and especially something to turn almost any ingame building into a burning death trap (the KS loadout has been changed now in many operations I think).
The SMGs give the soviet another very good option against the wooden houses in most sttlements. As already mentioned such houses are not exactly bullet proof.

The best option is indeed a layered defense with multiple lines. Houses have also the problem that they do not always have windows where you would need them. When a unit cannot look or fire in the enemy approach direction then the house was a bad choice :).
Occupying multiple houses in several lines can alleviate this. Against tanks any house will mostly do, when there is enemy infantry I would always prefer dug trenches compared to wooden houses, they are much better.

Stone or brick houses are obviously the best choice for defense, but often they will be near or on strategic key points and therefore the AI will mostly just bomb them into oblivion, again leading to death traps.

But in summary, if there is a good visibility towards enemy approach and a distance of 200-400 m you can inflict a lot of losses as germans against the soviet. It is best not to let the enemy infantry actually enter the settlement, but to use the houses at the settlement fringe as makeshift strongholds. In case that fails have a second line (possibly third) in the settlement with as good field of view/fire as possible.

Agreed on all these points. But I'm not putting my troops in the actual houses, because just like you said, they usually don't have good field of view.

I keep my guys in between the houses and would just hope that they would be able to at least react when they spot enemy infantry close by. But this mysterious lack of reaction is what me made me write this post.

[Bulletpoint]

Actually now that I think about it, maybe this is related to the poor FPS I'm getting? This would explain why only some people report these kinds of issues. If the game engine "drops spotting checks" when it's overburdened, this could mean that some units don't react when they should? But other players with more powerful PCs don't have the same issue. Just guesswork.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

Actually now that I think about it, maybe this is related to the poor FPS I'm getting? This would explain why only some people report these kinds of issues. If the game engine "drops spotting checks" when it's overburdened, this could mean that some units don't react when they should? But other players with more powerful PCs don't have the same issue. Just guesswork.

That might happen, yes. Andrey also mentioned sometimes that there can be faulty checks and whatnot if the game does "overburden" your system.

[Bulletpoint]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

Actually now that I think about it, maybe this is related to the poor FPS I'm getting? This would explain why only some people report these kinds of issues. If the game engine "drops spotting checks" when it's overburdened, this could mean that some units don't react when they should? But other players with more powerful PCs don't have the same issue. Just guesswork.

That might happen, yes. Andrey also mentioned sometimes that there can be faulty checks and whatnot if the game does "overburden" your system.

It definitely overburdens my poor old system. Getting around 10-14 FPS in this battle when there's a lot going on. After the battle, I realised there are almost 2000 Soviets and lots of tanks.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

Originally posted by Zephyr:

That might happen, yes. Andrey also mentioned sometimes that there can be faulty checks and whatnot if the game does "overburden" your system.

It definitely overburdens my poor old system. Getting around 10-14 FPS in this battle when there's a lot going on. After the battle, I realised there are almost 2000 Soviets and lots of tanks.

Well 10-20 FPS is ugly :). I want 25 FPS at least in this game. When it dips for 1-2 seconds below I can live with it, but continously 10-20 FPS for minutes or longer, bahhhh :).

I am lucky enough to stay almost always above 22-25 FPS regardless what is happening. actually I think I never went below 20 FPS with my current setup.

You could enable imited battle radius for such battles specifically. I hope you did not do it already and still got such battles... .

[Bulletpoint]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

It definitely overburdens my poor old system. Getting around 10-14 FPS in this battle when there's a lot going on. After the battle, I realised there are almost 2000 Soviets and lots of tanks.

Well 10-20 FPS is ugly :). I want 25 FPS at least in this game. When it dips for 1-2 seconds below I can live with it, but continously 10-20 FPS for minutes or longer, bahhhh :).

I am lucky enough to stay almost always above 22-25 FPS regardless what is happening. actually I think I never went below 20 FPS with my current setup.

You could enable imited battle radius for such battles specifically. I hope you did not do it already and still got such battles... .

I want 25 FPS too. But unfortunately my computer doesn't agree.. :) Thinking of finally upgrading later this year when some new games come out that I want to play.

And I'm using unlimited battle radius. Maybe I should think of changing that setting...

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Merc:

Could you also tell how many squads can hold such 2-3 store buildings for max fire efficency?

1-2 regular infantry squads with 2 LMG is good enough, imho. As Zephyr has pointed out, stone/brick houses are only bullet-proof but not arty-proof, vulnerable to mortars and tanks.

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

The end result seems to be the same: Enemy infantry basically just runs straight through town, nearly unopposed, since my troops will rarely ever fire at them even when actively spotting them.

The field of fire is very limited in a village defense, and the attacking side may have a chance to sneak pass all your fields of fire.
BTW, spotting them doesn't mean they are in the field of fire. The most effective asset, LMG, may not be in the right position to open fire (LOF blocked by trench, foliage, etc).

Originally posted by Zephyr:

The germans often lack good grenade loadout and especially something to turn almost any ingame building into a burning death trap.

Imho, for the Germans in GTMF, the best anti-building assets are 5cm mortar and 3kg satchel/Tellermine. Houses would catch fire and collapse after ~15 5cm mortar bomb hits. But still, concentrated LMG42/PPsh fire may quickly build up suppression and force the enemy to abandon these houses.