[Issue] 88 trench (again)

[Battleshipfree99]

Guess it's worth noting that 88 (mot) is completely fine, just like its Soviet buddy: 85mm 52-K. It's the non-motorized mount 88 that we are complaining over and over again.
Mount unbalanced again due to recoil.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3060533487
What a 88 trench should be like: with foxholes for the whole 10-men crew.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3060533373

[Battleshipfree99]

The 88 (mot) is mounted on wheels, like 85mm 52-K, so they don't have the unbalanced issue. If there's trouble fixing the quadpod 88, maybe just replace all with 88 (mot)?

[WhipMyWombat]

yeh the non motorized 88s are plagued with issues i was playing borki campaign and i came to the realisation that if the guns were not on even ground they would alot of the times not even fire on tanks even if they had a good view on them

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by WhipMyWombat:

yeh the non motorized 88s are plagued with issues i was playing borki campaign and i came to the realisation that if the guns were not on even ground they would alot of the times not even fire on tanks even if they had a good view on them

Actually, it seems that trench soil is too soft for 88's recoil and the gun would easily stuck unbalanced, but if the gun is deployed without trench, the soil could usually hold it, though at a high risk of exposing the gun and the crew. (Well, quadpod 88 trench doesn't have foxholes for the crew either. lol)

[Archipilot]

Hey, so I looked into this kind of in-depth last year but got too busy IRL to post anything. After recording some in-game videos of the 88mm firing and watching them in slow motion, it's apparent that the non-wheeled Flak is experiencing a recoil problem. Specifically, when firing, the entire gun rotates upward, literally lifting the front on the assembly off the ground by a substantial amount. (I'll upload the video when I find it on my old computer, hopefully soon....This movement is easy to recreate in the battle editor -- put your camera close to the gun so you can see it move when it fires. Take screenshots if you want to see exactly how much the barrel angle changes.)

I can't measure it exactly, but I'd estimate that the front supports lift off the ground by at least half a meter. When the gun supports land back on the ground a fraction of a second later (after firing), the terrain under those support points is sometimes deformed and the gun angle is subsequently changed. After a number of shots, the support of the gun may be compromised to the point where it cannot fire.

In other words, it seems that the soil/terrain is working as it should but the recoil of this particular gun is inaccurate -- specifically, the lifting-off-the-ground behavior. There are literally dozens and dozens (maybe even hundreds) of period films that show the Flak firing, and many of these are compiled on YouTube. I haven't see any evidence of the gun supports lifting off the ground in any of these period films. If anything, the base movement from recoil on the stationary gun mechanism is substantially less than for the wheeled version. The wheeled chassis can be seen moving, but doesn't lift off the ground. With the non-wheeled Flak 36, the recoil movement exists entirely within the barrel and the recoil mechanism, as expected. The supports should not move at all when the gun in fired, for logical reasons. (i.e., the force vector should be applied directly into the ground.)

After checking just now with the most recent version, there doesn't seem to have been any progress with this issue since last year. I would be very happy if this, along with the entrenchment issue, would be fixed, so that the Borki campaign (in particular) can be more realistic.

[WhipMyWombat]

Originally posted by Archipilot:

Hey, so I looked into this kind of in-depth last year but got too busy IRL to post anything. After recording some in-game videos of the 88mm firing and watching them in slow motion, it's apparent that the non-wheeled Flak is experiencing a recoil problem. Specifically, when firing, the entire gun rotates upward, literally lifting the front on the assembly off the ground by a substantial amount. (I'll upload the video when I find it on my old computer, hopefully soon....This movement is easy to recreate in the battle editor -- put your camera close to the gun so you can see it move when it fires. Take screenshots if you want to see exactly how much the barrel angle changes.)

I can't measure it exactly, but I'd estimate that the front supports lift off the ground by at least half a meter. When the gun supports land back on the ground a fraction of a second later (after firing), the terrain under those support points is sometimes deformed and the gun angle is subsequently changed. After a number of shots, the support of the gun may be compromised to the point where it cannot fire.

In other words, it seems that the soil/terrain is working as it should but the recoil of this particular gun is inaccurate -- specifically, the lifting-off-the-ground behavior. There are literally dozens and dozens (maybe even hundreds) of period films that show the Flak firing, and many of these are compiled on YouTube. I haven't see any evidence of the gun supports lifting off the ground in any of these period films. If anything, the base movement from recoil on the stationary gun mechanism is substantially less than for the wheeled version. The wheeled chassis can be seen moving, but doesn't lift off the ground. With the non-wheeled Flak 36, the recoil movement exists entirely within the barrel and the recoil mechanism, as expected. The supports should not move at all when the gun in fired, for logical reasons. (i.e., the force vector should be applied directly into the ground.)

After checking just now with the most recent version, there doesn't seem to have been any progress with this issue since last year. I would be very happy if this, along with the entrenchment issue, would be fixed, so that the Borki campaign (in particular) can be more realistic.

this makes alot of sense in the borki campaign the 88s are massively inaccurate to the point there more of a liability to have also due to their size and non maneuverability your better off sticking to the 50mm guns you get

[Battleshipfree99]

Playing and testing around for several battles and it seems that the "mount stuck unbalanced" bug occurs much rarer, yet still exists.
Check 0:51, 1:28 mark, the gun mount doesn't seem to recoil that strong in real world, or at least never stuck in the ground & the crew won't try to free it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEF6X08jJL8
Seems the recoil force is mostly horizontal (firing point blank)?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIpu6vSTWrQ

[Bulletpoint]

I think the real gun is also anchored by some pretty big stakes going into the ground, and if those are not modelled in the game, maybe that's why these issues happen?

[Toni]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Playing and testing around for several battles and it seems that the "mount stuck unbalanced" bug occurs much rarer, yet still exists.
Check 0:51, 1:28 mark, the gun mount doesn't seem to recoil that strong in real world, or at least never stuck in the ground & the crew won't try to free it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEF6X08jJL8

I did a test battle and the gun seems to move like in 1:28, but yes stronger and its overall positions changes sometimes as a consequence.

How does it look when it is "stuck unbalanced"? One of mine ended up like this (and did not fire anymore):
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3107150945

Would giving it more "weight" help?

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Playing and testing around for several battles and it seems that the "mount stuck unbalanced" bug occurs much rarer, yet still exists.

Testing around with the new KV-1. 88s failed again, exact same bug as:

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Mount unbalanced again due to recoil.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3060533487

Basically, you can only expect the 88 to fire once. Any more shot is lucky bonus. XD

[Radegast]

You disccused this topic long ago. Why Andrew dont switch this Flak for the vehicle type? Until this is solved. Or at least, give us option to chose if we want the asset digged or not.

[Bulletpoint]

Since ground deformation is simulated based on the physics engine, I wonder if the developers could "cheat" a little with this gun by giving it a wider plate under each leg - the plates could be invisible hidden under the ground, but might still help anchor the gun and prevent it from tilting.