[Closed][Suggestion] Timeline fix to German 7.5cm Gr38HL HEAT projectiles (A, B and C)

[Battleshipfree99]

Currently in game:
PzIVF has B projectile from 1941;
sdkfz251/9 has B projectile from winter 1942;
PzIVF2 has B and C projectiles only in spring 1942; (apparently a bug)
StugIII B/C/D/E has B projectile from summer 1942;
pak97/38 has B projectile from autumn-winter 1942;
PzIVG has C projectile from winter 1943;
pak97/38 has C projectile from autumn-winter 1943;
(PzIVF, PzIIIN, sdkfz251/9, stugIII don't have C projectile).

From what I know, Gr38HL projectiles were supplied to eastern front troops from January 1942.
Gr38HL/B was mentioned in February 1942 Pak40 penetration handbook. Link:
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2016/12/pak-40-penetration-tables.html
Gr38HL/C wasn't mentioned in February 1943 7.5cm kwk penetration handbook. Link:
https://www.tankarchives.ca/2020/02/75-cm-kwk-firing-tables.html

A more historical accurate timeline may be like:
A available from winter 1942;
B available from spring or summer 1942;
C probably available from summer 1943 (some suggest late 1943~early 1944).

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

A more historical accurate timeline may be like:

For which specific weapon is this historical accurate timeline?

Because judging by your links, this is definitely not for the Pak-40.

[andrey12345 v2.0]

The layouts of HEAT shells in the game are certainly waiting for their change, but this is much more complicated and individual for each weapon. And it cannot be described with a historically accurate sequence of 4 lines for all types of guns.
For example pak97/38 most likely did not shot HL/B shells in any year :)
And the difference between HL/A and HL/B is so small that it may not be worth the effort to figure out when which projectile was fired.
HL/C in general most likely did not available, except some guns.

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

C probably available from summer 1943 (some suggest late 1943~early 1944).

"116 tbn reported that after fighting 76 battles (July 1943 - January 1944) had expended the following amount of 75mm:
KwK40 HE: 4867
KwK40 AP: 1798
KwK40 HL/B:1237
KwK L/24 AP:39
KwK L/24 HL/B: 99"

Do you see any HL/C ?

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

For example pak97/38 most likely did not shot HL/B shells in any year :)

In Finnish Army, pak97/38 was used with Gr38HL/B. A piece of cross-reference that proves pak97/38 did received some Gr38HL/B to fire. To quote

The recommended antitank ammunion for this gun was with HEAT-projectiles. In case of Finnish Army this meant ammunition with 75 hkr 42-18/24-38 (German 7.5 cm Gr. 38 Hl/B) warheads capable achieving about 75-mm armour penetration with 60-degree point of impact.

https://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS2.htm

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

Do you see any HL/C ?

Yep. So I'm using "probably" since the accurate date can not be found.
Oh, seems that C projectile is already available to pak40/kwk40 and pak97/38 in September 1943. In this firing method report by Waffenamt-Prüfwesen 1, Gr38HL/C is mentioned for these guns.
https://panzerworld.com/tank-combat-firing-methods


Anyway, two issues are very likely bugs and should be fixed:
1. Remove Gr38HL/A and B from 1941 PzIVF.
2. Fix the ammo loadout of spring 1942 PzIVF2 like those in summer 1942.

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Yep. So I'm using "probably" since the accurate date can not be found.
Oh, seems that C projectile is available to pak40/kwk40 and pak97/38 in September 1943.
https://panzerworld.com/tank-combat-firing-methods

No, it only follows that such a projectile has already been manufactured and tested. I'm not talking about the fact that for Pak 97/38 and for Pak 40, these are different shells, but in the report for some reason they took the value for Pak 97/38 from Pak40.

For Pak 97/38, it is very likely that the HL/C(f) appeared already in September 1943 (and this is very logical - there are no options for other AP shells for this gun). But as for the Pak-40, there is no such certainty yet for HL/C.

The "standard" for the ammunition load where HL/C is found for the Pak-40 dates back to October 1943. And when they actually entered the battles is not clear at all.

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

No, it only follows that such a projectile has already been manufactured and tested.

Yep. These shells were certainly available for homeland tests but might not be available to frontline troops.

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

I'm not talking about the fact that for Pak 97/38 and for Pak 40, these are different shells, but in the report for some reason they took the value for Pak 97/38 from Pak40.

This is logical though. Gr38HL shells all have the same muzzle velocity of 450m/s and same projectile design. So trajectory and accuracy are basically same among all 7.5cm guns (L24, L36, L43 or L48).

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Gr38HL shells all have the same muzzle velocity of 450m/s and same projectile design. So trajectory and accuracy are basically same among all 7.5cm guns (L24, L36, L43 or L48).

This is just a guess. There are no schemes and descriptions for the shells for Pak 97/38. A cumulative projectile with the body of the French HE shell may have slightly different characteristics. I'm not talking about the traditional driving bands, the steepness of the rifling and everything that distinguishes different guns from each other.
Absolutely the same initial speed with such a variety of artillery systems looks very suspicious.

[Battleshipfree99]

@andrey12345 v2.0
Suspicions can be lifted then. Official German documents specify the muzzle velocity of these shells. (All 450m/s, except Gr38HL/C for kwk37/stuk37 is specified as 440m/s.)
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/Schusstafeln/StartSeite.htm
Whether such shells were available to a certain unit at a certain time would be rather complicated though, as you've pointed out.

H.Dv. 119/319 (Sep. 1942) - pak97/38

Schußtafel
für die
7,5 cm Panzerjägerkanone 97/38
mit der
7,5 cm Sprenggranatpatrone 233/1 (f) – frz 17 –
7,5 cm Sprenggranatpatrone 230/1 (f) – frz 1900 –
7,5 cm Sprenggranatpatrone 231/1 (f) – frz 15 –
7,5 cm Sprenggranatpatrone 236/1 (f) – frz 18 –
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38/97 Hl/A (f)
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38/97 Hl/B (f)
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 15/38 Hl/B (f)
und der
7,5 cm Kanonengranatpatrone Panzer (p)

H.Dv. 119/320 attachment (date unknown) - kwk37&stuk37

Schußtafel für die 7,5 cm Kampfwagenkanone und das Sturmgeschütz 7,5 cm Kanone
7,5 cm Kampfwagenkanone
Sturmgeschütz 7,5 cm Kanone
und
7,5 cm Kanone 37 (Sf)
mit der
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38 Hl/A Kw K
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38 Hl/B Kw K
und
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38 Hl/C Kw K

H.Dv. 119/324 (Oct. 1943) - pak40&kwk40

Schußtafel
für die
7,5 cm Kampfwagenkanone 40
(7,5 cm Kw K 40)
und
7,5 cm Sturmkanone 40
(7,5 cm Stu K 40)
mit der
7,5 cm Sprenggranatpatrone 34 Kw K 40
7,5 cm Panzergranatpatrone 39 Kw K 40
7,5 cm Panzergranatpatrone 40 Kw K 40
7,5 cm Panzergranatpatrone 40 (W) Kw K 40
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38 Hl/B und Hl/C Kw K 40
und
7,5 cm Nebelgranatpatrone Kw K 40
und die
7,5 cm Panzerjägerkanone 40
(7,5 cm Pak 40)
mit der
7,5 cm Sprenggranatpatrone 34 Pak 40
7,5 cm Panzergranatpatrone 39 Pak 40
7,5 cm Panzergranatpatrone 40 Pak 40
7,5 cm Panzergranatpatrone 40 (W) Pak 40
7,5 cm Granatpatrone 38 Hl/B und Hl/C Pak 40
und
7,5 cm Nebelgranatpatrone Pak 40

[Battleshipfree99]

Update: Some rather significant changes occur after today's patch.
Timeline:
Summer 1941: pak97/38 available (with Gr38HL/A)*

Winter 1942: pak36 - PzGr39, PzGr40 and Stielgr41

Spring 1942: StugIII, PzIVF, sdkfz251/9 - Gr38HL/A

Summer 1942: leIG18 - IGr38HL/A

Autumn 1942: 3cm HE and HEAT rifle grenades; PzIIIN available (with Gr38HL/B); PzIVG available (with Gr38HL/B); pak97/38 - Gr38HL/B

Autumn-winter 1942: StugIII, PzIVF, sdkfz251/9 - Gr38HL/B

Winter 1943: StugIIIF8 available (with Gr38HL/B); PzIVG scr available (with Gr38HL/C)*; PzIVG early - Gr38HL/B; pak40 - Gr38HL/B; leFH18 - Gr38HL/B*

Autumn 1943: pak97/38 - Gr38HL/C

*Need fix
1. Pak97/38 should not be available in 1941 skirmishes. (IIRC, it was first produced in May 1942.)
2. The only PzIV in the latest game version firing Gr38HL/C and as early as winter 1943.
3. leFH18 fires the "10cm Gr39 rot HL/(A, B, C)" HEAT projectiles, muzzle velocity 415 or 495m/s (charge 5 or 6).
Source: Anhang 9, zur Schußtafel H.Dv. 119/151

[Battleshipfree99]

NARA T78 R144:
http://wwiidigitalarchives.org/t78-okh

#0228
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D4i9IUISVMl-ynkh60GVMoQ6yD5VoAOw/view?usp=sharing
Production in April 1942 in thousands for HEAT projectiles:
3cm HEAT rifle grenade (75k)
Steilgr41 - 3.7cm pak (8k)
Gr38HL - 7,5cm/L24 (48.5k)
IGr38 - 7.5cm leIG18 (30k)
10cm Gr39 rot - 10.5cm leFH18 (117.1k).

#0298
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c-jArHyRkP7KD_hTX_NrmJJ4lA2H7S2D/view?usp=sharing
13.6.1942
Production numbers in May 1942 in thousands.
3cm HEAT rifle grenade (48k) (75k produced in April were reworked to avoid in-bore detonation.)
4.5cm HEAT rifle grenade in production. (2k)
HEAT projectiles specified:
Steilgr41 - 3.7cm pak (36k)
Gr38HL/A - 7.5cm/L24 kwk/stuk (9.9k)
Gr38HL/A -7.5cm kwk40/stuk40 (15k)
Gr38HL/A -pak40 (10k)
Gr38HL/(A&B), GrM15f - pak97/38 (44.1k, 35k)
IGr38HL/(A&B) - 7.5cm leIG18 (134k)
10cm Gr39 rot HL/(A&B) - 10.5cm leFH18 (80.8k, of which 6k were B projectiles).
(15cm IGr39HL for sIG33 was also mentioned at the bottom.)

#0460
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LBwYTkxXnpltUHZfOlSQXl_yrpt7nYYM/view?usp=sharing
#0461
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1m1ZZBDOqcXRbapA5dxchEQWeKnMsMAlz/view?usp=sharing
16.9.1942
Ammo consumption, April to August 1942. (August data would be adjusted in #0663.)
Note that:
1. Rifle grenade consumption rose to 43.6k/15.8k in June 1942, Steilgr41 for 3.7cm pak rose to 1.7k and 7.1k in July and August 1942.
These weapons have short effective ranges and are rare to see being used in GTMF.
2. Pak97/38 fired its first HE in combat in July 1942. May 1942 produced Gr38HL/B must have been on its way to the guns or could be already in use.

#0615
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LbH5t6n1jEaUphdxo-tF9IOBfqWXkMaA/view?usp=sharing
25.10.1942
HEAT projectile for pak97/38 was specified as Gr38HL/B.

#0663
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DZvBxHdK_n4G2YXtJuBgUFW7pQrSvQo2/view?usp=sharing
#0665
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Mz7EdXKrYKqsD4HophNEfXncGlMBQkG8/view?usp=sharing
25.11.1942
Ammo consumption, August to October 1942. (Estimation for November.)
1. Consider that Gr38HL/A for pak97/38 was produced only in May 1942 and no more than 44.1k, it's likely that Gr38HL/A stocks was mostly used up by October so the main ammo supply would be Gr38HL/B. (Assume a 50-50 ratio for HEAT and HE used. Typical for other AT guns, pak38 and pak40, throughout the same time period.)
2. 14.5k 10cm Gr39 rot HEAT shells (for leFH16&18) were used in August 1942.

[Battleshipfree99]

Suggestions:
From the production statistics, we can see that huge amount of HEAT projectiles for leFH18 and leIG18 were produced in April and May 1942.
(As a reference, 674k and 6321.8k HE for leFH18 were produced in April 1942 and in stock on 1.5.1942, 128k APC for Pak38 were produced in April 1942).
Other projectiles were also largely produced in the same time period.
B projectiles were in mass production no later than May 1942, while A projectiles' production should be superseded.

So it's reasonable to
1. Add HEAT projectiles to leFH18 in summer 1942 (May to July in GT).
Yet, there's no Gr39 rot HL/A in game (Gr39 rot HL/B misspelled as Gr38HL/B), so maybe either add an A projectile or directly add B projectile to summer 1942?

2. Gr38HL/B, IGr38HL/B and Gr39 rot HL/B should be available in small numbers in summer or quite a few in autumn 1942.
(Guess 1 month is enough for May production ammo to be supplied to the frontline? First series of pak97/38 were finished in May and saw combat in July. Pak40 was first produced in February, mass produced in April and saw combat in June.)

3. 3cm HE and HEAT rifle grenades should be added to summer 1942, since 40k/15k were expanded in June 1942, clearly in combat use.

4. Pak97/38 should only be available in skirmish mode since summer 1942.
Could be firing Gr38HL/A only or a mix of A & B in summer 1942. GrM15(f) is not in game.
By autumn-winter 1942 (November), Gr38HL/A stocks were very likely depleted and Gr38HL/B should be the majority ammo supply.

[Battleshipfree99]

Possible historical timeline:
Spring in GT
Feb 1942 - Gr38HL/A available to 7.5cm/L24 kwk/stuk; IGr38HL/A available to 7.5cm leIG18; 10cm Gr39 rot HL/A available to 10.5cm leFH18.

Summer in GT
May 1942 - Production of A projectiles were gradually shifted to B projectiles; kwk40 in combat.
June 1942 - 3cm HE and HEAT rifle grenades in combat; pak40 in combat.
July 1942 - Steilgr41 for 3.7cm pak in combat; pak97/38 in combat.

Autumn in GT
October 1942 - A projectiles were probably depleted and B projectiles should be the majority of ammo loadout.


Comparing to the latest timeline in GT:

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Summer 1941: pak97/38 available (with Gr38HL/A)*

Winter 1942: pak36 - PzGr39, PzGr40 and Stielgr41

Spring 1942: StugIII, PzIVF, sdkfz251/9 - Gr38HL/A

Summer 1942: leIG18 - IGr38HL/A

Autumn 1942: 3cm HE and HEAT rifle grenades; PzIIIN available (with Gr38HL/B); PzIVG available (with Gr38HL/B); pak97/38 - Gr38HL/B

Autumn-winter 1942: StugIII, PzIVF, sdkfz251/9 - Gr38HL/B

Winter 1943: StugIIIF8 available (with Gr38HL/B); PzIVG scr available (with Gr38HL/C)*; PzIVG early - Gr38HL/B; pak40 - Gr38HL/B; leFH18 - Gr38HL/B*

Autumn 1943: pak97/38 - Gr38HL/C

A more historical one of 1942 would be:

Spring 1942: StugIII, PzIVF, sdkfz251/9 - Gr38HL/A; leIG18 - IGr38HL/A; leFH18 - 10cm Gr39 rot HL/A

Summer 1942: 3cm HE and HEAT rifle grenades; pak97/38 available (many Gr38HL/A and few B); StugIII, PzIVF, sdkfz251/9 - Gr38HL/B (few); leIG18 - IGr38HL/B (few); leFH18 - 10cm Gr39 rot HL/B (few); pak36 - Stielgr41

Autumn 1942: PzIIIN available (with Gr38HL/B); PzIVG available (with Gr38HL/B); more B projectiles

Autumn-winter 1942: B projectiles majority

Note:
No IGr38HL/B or 10cm Gr39 rot HL/A in game.
PzGr40 for pak36 and pak38 were available in September 1940 and March 1941. Not much in stock but were supplied to the troops.

[Battleshipfree99]

About C projectiles, unfortunately German documents rarely specify the exact HEAT projectile. So there's no "Gr38HL/C" in the documents throughout 1942~1943 in T78 R144.

PS: There was 7.5cm Gr38 for 7.5cm kwk (the first HEAT projectile, before Gr38HL/A) available in July 1940.
Source: H.Dv. 119/320 (July 1940)

Die 7,5 cm Gr.Patr. 38 eigent sich sowohl zur Bekämpfung von Kampfwagen wie auch zur Bekämpfung von lebenden Zielen. Gegen Kampfwagen ist gute Treffgenauigkeit auf Kampfentfernungen bis 800 m vorhanden. Die Splitterwirkung der 7,5 cm Gr. 38 gegen le-bende Ziele beträgt etwa 85 v.H. von derjenigen der 7,5 cm Gr. 34, vgl. Ziffer 5.

Translation:
7,5cm Gr38 is suitable for combating combat vehicles as well as for living targets. There is good accuracy against combat vehicles at combat distances of up to 800 m. The splinter effect of the 7.5 cm Gr38 against living targets is about 85% of that of the 7.5 cm Gr34 (the standard HE).

Yet, HEAT projectiles were classified and prohibited to use throughout 1941. First combat record of Gr38 or Gr38HL/A was around 24.1.1942, IIRC.

[Toni]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Official German documents specify the muzzle velocity of these shells. (All 450m/s, except Gr38HL/C for kwk37/stuk37 is specified as 440m/s.)
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/Schusstafeln/StartSeite.htm

The corresponding ammunition regulations are also interesting, for example, it seems that some HL/B had tracers, some not:

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/HEER/HDv_481/Heft_077/Anlagen/Anlg_04.htm
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/HEER/HDv_481/Heft_085/Anlagen/Anlg_04.htm

Only the most basic HL description is the same for all types/guns in all regulations:

"The HL is primarily suited for fighting tanks. The larger the impact angle, the better the effect, which remains the same on all distances. HL can also be used against living targets with good effect. When hitting flat terrain with angles below 15 degrees, a certain percentage of duds or ricochets (which can still be triggered in the 2nd impact) must be expected. Barrel safety is deactivated 0.5 - 1 m away from the muzzle."

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Toni:

The corresponding ammunition regulations are also interesting, for example, it seems that some HL/B had tracers, some not:

http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/HEER/HDv_481/Heft_077/Anlagen/Anlg_04.htm
http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Heer/HEER/HDv_481/Heft_085/Anlagen/Anlg_04.htm

Interestingly, 7.62cm Gr38HL/B for pak36r was not seen in NARA T78 R144.
Tracer seems to be common to newer shells. E.g., 7.5cm Gr38HL/C for kwk, 7.5cm Gr38HL/C for kwk40/stuk40, 7.5cm Gr38HL/C for pak40 and 8.8cm Gr39HL for kwk36.