Overpowered German tanks

[TheOneTrueDemoknight]

Title. German tanks seem overpowered in almost every situation as Soviets. The consistently get 2:1 or 3:1 KD ratios on my tanks and AT guns when attacking and defending. My AT guns, firing from concealed positions at close range, seem to be unable to score lethal hits. Meanwhile the German tanks fire with laser accuracy destroying all my guns within minutes. It's very frustrating. Going through the battle afterwards, I see that less than 1/4 of my guns and tanks even disabled a single tank, despite being almost completely wiped out. The tanks had almost no support and basically just drove into my lines.

[Zephyr]

This is the consequence of recent updates and discussions. And no, the german tanks certainly have not laser accuracy. They are indeed quite inaccurate over longer distance. But they start to fire a lot earlier than the soviet tanks with 76.2 mm gun (germans with long 7.5 cm gun or 8.8 cm gun). This gives over time higher probability and chances to hit.

Soviet tanks fire at 800 m-1000 m. Tigers start at 1.6-1.7 km. Close range hit probabilities equal out (600-800 m) more or less. To be honest this fits historical descriptions a lot more than in earlier game versions. It was not that the soviet guns were that inaccurate, but they prefered close range fighting by training and overall the heavier german guns have at least somewhat better accuracy over long distance I guess. They have generally higher velocity guns which would make targeting and hitting moving targets easier in principal.

Also, finally something like a Pz IV F2 is a dangerous opponent when it can engage at long distance. Until recently it was basically a T-34 with far worse armor protection. Now the behavior is very different.

Still, against Pz IV you can inflict heavy losses with equal numbers, just not with frontal assaults. This kind of makes sense. And I must say overall tank battles have become even more interesting now than ever before.

[Battleshipfree99]

Please take some time and try Germans against Soviets. You'd see that T-34/KV-1 can do the exact same or even better (crush a concealed AT defense of pak38 and pak40 without support).

Personally, I think this is due to the extreme suppression effect of guns to personnel. Gun crews are easily suppressed by returning tank fire (HE and shrapnel), that's why you see that only 1/4 of your guns actually scored a hit before being suppressed and knocked out.
Better spread out your guns with an interval at least 200m. Or they would be suppressed at the same time.

And the 2:1 kill ratio you've mentioned. I suppose you were testing with PzIVG vs T-34/53-K. If so, then you are expecting too much from T-34 and the small 45mm AT gun while overlooked the firepower of PzIVG.

From some recent update, T-34's accuracy is somehow affected by its poor observability. A KV-1 would be much more effective and reliable.
(Seems that KV-1 can place the shot into weak spots easily while T-34 always misses and hits the sloped armor plate where it can't penetrate. lol)

Besides, you say you were doing close range ambush, yet all guns in game are accurate as hell within 600m, except low velocity howitzer and HEAT though. That's probably why you think German guns are "laser accurate".

[Bulletpoint]

Someone posted recently that it's the opposite: Soviet guns open fire at longer ranges and have generally higher accuracy. I'm not sure what to believe.

Playing as the Germans, I haven't noticed my tanks firing with laser accuracy I must say.

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

Someone posted recently that it's the opposite: Soviet guns open fire at longer ranges and have generally higher accuracy. I'm not sure what to believe.

That's sometime before the last beta update. Computer controlled units intentionally use "priority target" to fire beyond 1km (firing BR-350A), usually 1.2~1.3km. This is later fixed and both player and computer controlled Russian 76s are restricted to 1km (firing BR-350A).

About accuracy. Russian 76s are quite accurate, with an extra bonus from the superior sights. German 75/88 have a longer max range but the effective hitting range is basically the same as Russian 76s, approx. 0.6~0.9km.
Also, Russian 76s can fire shrapnel (SH-354T) out to 1.5km, the same max range for German 75.

[Flan]

Tank (vehicle) crews are very disciplined in this game. This works against AT guns and ambushes since a solid hit doesn't mean a kill, you have to actually KILL the tank dead (start a fire or total wipe out of the crew or weapon system). Of course doesn't work the other way, AT guns are crewed by individual soldiers which just get suppressed or blown away very easily by the tank returning fire. German tanks have more crew, this compounds the advantage.

It's not realistic but I guess it might on average give better results once everything is tallied up.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Originally posted by Bulletpoint:

Someone posted recently that it's the opposite: Soviet guns open fire at longer ranges and have generally higher accuracy. I'm not sure what to believe.

That's sometime before the last beta update. Computer controlled units intentionally use "priority target" to fire beyond 1km (firing BR-350A), usually 1.2~1.3km. This is later fixed and both player and computer controlled Russian 76s are restricted to 1km (firing BR-350A).

About accuracy. Russian 76s are quite accurate, with an extra bonus from the superior sights. German 75/88 have a longer max range but the effective hitting range is basically the same as Russian 76s, approx. 0.6~0.9km.
Also, Russian 76s can fire shrapnel (SH-354T) out to 1.5km, the same max range for German 75.

Yes, basically. But like I wrote above when you fight long 7.5 cm or 8.8 cm guns on an open field headon you will suffer greatly with soviet tanks, both T-34 and KV-1 The hit rate for the german tanks is not that great beyond 1 km, but they get a lot of shots of before the soviet tanks will return fire. This I have now tested often enough. In such conditions you can very easily get a 1:2 or 1:3 kill rate as the germans now. But open field of fire for 1.5 km or more is needed. 24 T-34 against 20 or so Pz IV long barrel have no realistic chance then. And that is prbably totally ok.

BR-350B is now also better in terms of firing range (and accuracy?) than BR-350A. In total I find this update really cool and fun to experiment with since shells/tank loadouts and perhaps tank crew doctrine are now very noticeable and important to consider compared to all earlier game versions I can remember. Especially what was done to HEAT shells is very effectively a "nerf", before they had a little less accuracy than APHE but they were very nearly as good. Now not so much.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Tank (vehicle) crews are very disciplined in this game. This works against AT guns and ambushes since a solid hit doesn't mean a kill, you have to actually KILL the tank dead (start a fire or total wipe out of the crew or weapon system). Of course doesn't work the other way, AT guns are crewed by individual soldiers which just get suppressed or blown away very easily by the tank returning fire. German tanks have more crew, this compounds the advantage.

It's not realistic but I guess it might on average give better results once everything is tallied up.

To be fair it is relatively easy in the game to knock out the tank main guns. Also, heavier guns often enough kill medium tanks (effectively destroy) with 1-2 hits.

More rarely immobilizing the tank is enough for the crew to leave it. All in all I think it is really fine since the crews are also very disciplined in shooting at the enemy. There is no shooting at disabled tanks to make sure and probably many more things like that... . I have no trouble at all to inflict terrible damage with AT guns. It does not matter if soviet or german and it also is not necessary to hold fire or something. Just let them fire away. Of course this only works if the gun has at least decent chances penetrating or damaging the enemy tank.

But close quaters combat is not a good idea generally. Tanks can spot the guns much faster then. Firing at maximum range is far more effective usually. Close ambushs only work well when you flank the enemy tanks (not surprising).

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

...perhaps tank crew doctrine are now very noticeable and important to consider compared to all earlier game versions I can remember.

Yep. "Act with caution" may effectively alter the result of a tank duel. Well aimed shots may save ammo and even lives.

[Flan]

Oh there's the other annoying thing where moving tanks have giant advantage over stationary things, they are still able to accurately fire on the move unstabilised at things 1km away while aiming at a moving thing makes a unit very reluctant to fire and are very inaccurate in general. Just have some T-34s drive down a road towards a tiger or something a watch the disaster unfold.

It's sort of a cheat but you can win a lot of battles by fast moving into the enemy tanks so they can't hit you.

[archibaldthe1]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Oh there's the other annoying thing where moving tanks have giant advantage over stationary things, they are still able to accurately fire on the move unstabilised at things 1km away while aiming at a moving thing makes a unit very reluctant to fire and are very inaccurate in general. Just have some T-34s drive down a road towards a tiger or something a watch the disaster unfold.

It's sort of a cheat but you can win a lot of battles by fast moving into the enemy tanks so they can't hit you.

I did get T34s to fire on the move with fast move modifier (which according the manual should only be done firing against the infantry, or, on a Sherman at under 500m). Don't necessarily think it's more accurate, but I suppose it should nigh impossible to hit anything?
I am struggling with replicating this faster attacker advantage because by the time they see anything they are usually dead. I may be wrong, but I don't see fire on a moving target from these limited experiment done differently? it's the same arbitrary bracket, and the deflection correction is almost always good.
If I replace T34s with KVs, then 6 on 5 attack against long-barrel PZ4 is way more fruitful, but I cannot establish whether attacking with “fast” modifier (which I assume is what allows to fire on the move) and without one are significantly different.

[Flan]

Usually it's the "move by road" speed so less than fast but more than crawl speed.
I'm not sure if it's the dust that moving makes that has some effect on the aiming at the moving tank but they definitely don't have to short stop to aim and shoot to hit tanks 800m away while driving on a bumpy road, which on a T-34 seems impossibly hard.
While the stationary tank has lots of trouble hitting the 800m T-34 driving right at it or across it's view even though it has a long barrel 75 or 88 gun will miss hundreds of metres in front or behind what is a easy first shot hit. Often I can get my tanks right up to the enemy with only a few losses.

Being worse at spotting is true yeah, the stationary unit almost always spots the moving one first in my experience. I just often get better results moving my tanks around while attacking enemy stationary postilions than if I try to use my own stationary position.

Even in a quick test now I can easy get stuff like tanks just driving past not being targeted but still receiving accurate return fire from them without them stopping,
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951988975
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951989860

Tanks that do stop or get stuck get destroyed pretty easily still.

Also likes to shoot a tank it can't even see
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951989761

And example of missing by too far to be realistic
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2951990638

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Oh there's the other annoying thing where moving tanks have giant advantage over stationary things, they are still able to accurately fire on the move unstabilised at things 1km away while aiming at a moving thing makes a unit very reluctant to fire and are very inaccurate in general. Just have some T-34s drive down a road towards a tiger or something a watch the disaster unfold.

It's sort of a cheat but you can win a lot of battles by fast moving into the enemy tanks so they can't hit you.

Hm, that is not really comparable to what I see in the battle editor at the moment. Yes, tanks can fire on the move but usually this only happens at 500 m or so with any real accuracy.

And standing Tigers especially or Pz IV G are absolutely deadly for equal to double the number of moving T-34 when they can open fire from 1.3-1.7 km. I am testing on the Kalinovka map 42 and 43 setting good weather, early afternoon. T-34 use move slowly+Maneuver, though when I command them. AI T-34 are also moving slowly towards my forces and stop regularly to aim and fire. Overall the tanks forces move slowly towards each other and exchange a huge amount of fire. However, the germans always have 300-600 m when they shoot at the T-34 unopposed and that leads to the german tanks always winning when numbers are equal (T-34 against Pz. IV G). For Tigers less are necessary.

The T-34 will have real trouble getting into firing distance and even when they manage they will not hit very well still at 1 km initially. I have the impression that now the tank AI really adjusts fire after a miss so the hits become ever more probable.

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Just have some T-34s drive down a road towards a tiger or something a watch the disaster unfold.

I think this is another issue related to Tiger. It seems Tiger is reluctant to fire or not able to acquire a target quickly (poor situational awareness?). In most tests I find 4 PzIVG to be more effective than 4 Tiger. (Tiger seems to acquire a target real slow if it's within 800m.)
Maybe it's related to this topic:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/312980/discussions/0/2968398218074207190/#c2968398218074662320

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

If I replace T34s with KVs, then 6 on 5 attack against long-barrel PZ4 is way more fruitful, but I cannot establish whether attacking with “fast” modifier (which I assume is what allows to fire on the move) and without one are significantly different.

I think "fast" doesn't help too much. Getting within 600m then most AT guns won't miss a shot. The result @Flannelette mentioned is likely due to Tiger's poor situational awareness I guess.
T-34 has poor observability so it spot the target too late. KV has much better obsevability and can spot the target quicker and hit the weak spot quicker.

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Tanks that do stop or get stuck get destroyed pretty easily still.

I'm really fond of this feature. An immobilized target can be knocked out without missing too many shots.

Originally posted by Zephyr:

The T-34 will have real trouble getting into firing distance and even when they manage they will not hit very well still at 1 km initially.

As have been mentioned, T-34 now suffers from poor observability. It's firing accuracy is also lower than KV. That's probably why T-34 can't even win a 2:1 tank duel against PzIVG while KV can do 1:2.
Try the same scenario with KV and you might see that KV can knock out a PzIV with 1~2 shots while T-34 most likely hit the sloped armor and can't penetrate. I guess DEV actually implemented the commander adjust fire mechanism?

Also, T-34 would return fire out to 1.5km with SH-354T and suppress the German panzers a bit. Not totally defenseless beyond 1km.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Just have some T-34s drive down a road towards a tiger or something a watch the disaster unfold.

I think this is another issue related to Tiger. It seems Tiger is reluctant to fire or not able to acquire a target quickly (poor situational awareness?). In most tests I find 4 PzIVG to be more effective than 4 Tiger. (Tiger seems to acquire a target real slow if it's within 800m.)

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

If I replace T34s with KVs, then 6 on 5 attack against long-barrel PZ4 is way more fruitful, but I cannot establish whether attacking with “fast” modifier (which I assume is what allows to fire on the move) and without one are significantly different.

I think "fast" doesn't help too much. Getting within 600m then most AT guns won't miss a shot. The result @Flannelette mentioned is likely due to Tiger's poor situational awareness I guess.
T-34 has poor observability so it spot the target too late. KV has much better obsevability and can spot the target quicker and hit the weak spot quicker.

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Tanks that do stop or get stuck get destroyed pretty easily still.

I'm really fond of this feature. An immobilized target can be knocked out without missing too many shots.

Originally posted by Zephyr:

The T-34 will have real trouble getting into firing distance and even when they manage they will not hit very well still at 1 km initially. I have the impression that now the tank AI really adjusts fire after a miss so the hits become ever more probable.

As have been mentioned, T-34 now suffers from poor observability. It's firing accuracy is also lower than KV. That's probably why T-34 can't even win a 2:1 tank duel against PzIVG.

Pz. IV are really very effective now. 4 Pz IV have also no big trouble against 3 KV-1 by the way. They will not lose or even suffer critical damage in most cases on flat open ground. My T-34 do not fire anything at tanks (frontally) beyond 1-1.2 km :).

Tigers are also very effective in the same situation but the firing frequency is a little lower. Still, they are hard to kill usually and fire from more than 1.5 km.

I have found, however, that fast moving T-34 are indeed more effective than slow moving ones. They still have trouble and will likely lose against equal numbers, but to my surprise I could confirm that they are fast moving and firing relatively accurately already from 600-800 m at standing targets which seems odd. Accuracy seems the same as if standing. Should that be possible? I do not know for sure but is strange. This also makes them nearly invulnerable to units with HEAT shells, because they hardly get hit this way.

[Battleshipfree99]

Originally posted by Zephyr:

I have found, however, that fast moving T-34 are indeed more effective than slow moving ones. They still have trouble, but to my surprise I could confirm that they are fast moving and firing relatively accurately already from 600-800 m at standing targets which seems odd. Accuracy seems the same as if standing. Should that be possible? I do not know for sure but is strange. This also makes them nearly invulnerable to units with HEAT shells, because they hardly get hit this way.

Currently, most APHE/APC can score first hit within 600~800m, For low velocity HEAT, first round hit can only be expected within 400m.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/312980/discussions/0/3785877016604172247/#c378587701660418♥♥♥♥