Illumination Flares

[ThunderChief]

Two main issues:

1) Off-map flares for night combat

Playing as the Wehrmacht, and artillery flares are not available with off-map 81mm mortars, or the 155mm artillery. Only the 105mm has them in Edge of Storm. I seem to remember the Granatwerfer 34 having illumination rounds in TW43. Is there a reason they are not available in some operations? I would think the mortar platoons would also carry a couple of flare rounds for tactical use.

2) Firing illumination flares vertically (infantry)

Why do the infantry platoon leaders fire illumination flares straight up into the air when what it mostly does is illuminate their surrounding area and make them an easy target for the enemy? It makes sense in some circumstances, such as defending an elevated position with a risk of flank attacks, but I have seen a number of occasions where enemy tracer fire is coming from 200-300m away and the platoon fires a flare that gives the enemy gunners a better view of the platoon.

It would seem to make more sense to fire the flare in the direction that the unit is facing/moving, at an angle, so the circle of light is just in front of the unit rather than the unit being at the centre of the circle.

[ThunderChief]

Messaggio originale di andrey12345 v2.0:

Messaggio originale di ThunderChief:

So, I'm trying to understand the logic of firing a flare pretty much vertically, and so far I don't.

Obviously, a vertically launched rocket reach higher height and falls longer time - the more likely it will be noticed.

Which makes sense for signal flares - but for illumination flares fired from the platoon commander position, it seems to be suboptimal.

[zaigre777]

Messaggio originale di ThunderChief:

Messaggio originale di andrey12345 v2.0:

Obviously, a vertically launched rocket reach higher height and falls longer time - the more likely it will be noticed.

Which makes sense for signal flares - but for illumination flares fired from the platoon commander position, it seems to be suboptimal.

So can we have Andrey telling us what that is?An illumination flare or signal flare? Is it meant to be fired at enemy to reveal positions,or fired above friendly to prevent friendly fire?

[ThunderChief]

I usually see at least 3 types of signal flare (colored smoke - day) and one type of illumination flare at night that is fired vertically and lights up a circular area around the platoon commander.

From p. 49 of the manual:

"Signal flares - allow to give a rough target designation on the enemy (draw attention of allies), and usually each commander has them. In the daytime smoke signals are used, and at nighttime - flares of different colors."

It would be really helpful to know what we are seeing, and what effect the illumination flare has for the enemy in terms of spotting soldiers that are inside the illuminated circle.

[Flan]

There are colored night flares too that don't light up the ground.
For real life you aim a illumination flare around 60 degrees so it will still illuminate you but be centred a little in front of you.

Also it would look real good to turn on dynamic light sources onto the particle effects for night time battles.

[ThunderChief]

Messaggio originale di Flannelette:

There are colored night flares too that don't light up the ground.
For real life you aim a illumination flare around 60 degrees so it will still illuminate you but be centred a little in front of you.

Also it would look real good to turn on dynamic light sources onto the particle effects for night time battles.

Good to know. And it does not appear to my eye that the illumination flares are being fired at 60 degrees. Looks more like 85.

I am really curious as to how much the illumination helps the enemy. I have had a few night battles in Edge of Storm, where it's really dark, and these illumination flares sometimes reveal up to 100 of my own troops while showing only 1 or 2 enemies who are within 50m of my platoon leader. In most cases, my platoon leader is positioned behind his squads, so what happens is that the squads in front of him are perfectly illuminated for the enemy, but the circle of light stops 5m in front of those squads. I cannot think of a better way to put your whole platoon at risk than firing an illumination flare straight up into the air while your squads are pushing forward 50m ahead of you.

[Flan]

I think what you see is how the illumination is affecting the units los too.
It is how fires, flares and IR spot lights work in the sim.

[ThunderChief]

We've all been in a situation at night where someone suddenly flips on a set of headlights or a torch and it completely messes up what we can see. If all of a sudden everything around you is bathed in white light, if you could see your enemy 50-100m away before, you just lost that ability to see him.

So again, I really don't understand the "fire the illumination flare up vertically" game mechanic. I don't know what it does, what the enemy sees. The only time I welcome it is when my unit is on an outcrop on the end of the line and being attacked from 3 sides.

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Messaggio originale di ThunderChief:

Which makes sense for signal flares - but for illumination flares fired from the platoon commander position, it seems to be suboptimal.

There are no illumination shells in the game that would be launched from platoon positions (onmap), only through offmap artillery. The principle of operation of such shells is that the height was such that the shell fading out near the ground. There is no point in launching them close to the ground surface or to illuminate something while lying on the ground.

[Gunnerr]

If the flares are parachute then it makes perfect sense to fire it vertically.

[ThunderChief]

Messaggio originale di andrey12345 v2.0:

Messaggio originale di ThunderChief:

Which makes sense for signal flares - but for illumination flares fired from the platoon commander position, it seems to be suboptimal.

There are no illumination shells in the game that would be launched from platoon positions (onmap), only through offmap artillery. The principle of operation of such shells is that the height was such that the shell fading out near the ground. There is no point in launching them close to the ground surface or to illuminate something while lying on the ground.

Thanks. What flare is being fired here?

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2354387733

[archibaldthe1]

Apologize for resurrecting an old topic. But I found something relevant I wanted to share - it’s about the use of flare gun (which is what @Thunderchief was referring to). It’s from an interview (in April 1943) with members of 6th Armored infantry regiment,

We were taught to fire the ground signal projector and white illuminating flares to mark front lines, but they will light up our area 200 yards square and will show the enemy our position rather than show us his . They should be shot out in advance of our positions and fired so that we are in the dark and the enemy is illuminated.

Flares keep the Germans guessing . Don't shoot them over the front lines of a troop. Shoot 200 or 300 yards in front of our front line troops so it lights the enemy.

They are specifically pointing out not firing these straight up, to avoid illuminating own position.

From here https://history.army.mil/books/Staff-Rides/kasserine/Vol-II-Part_4.pdf (page 58 of the pdf)

[Battleshipfree99]

@archibaldthe1
Thanks for the info. I thought the flare pistol in GT is for night time C2, not quite sure if AIs are using it as illumination.

[archibaldthe1]

Messaggio originale di Battleshipfree99:

@archibaldthe1
Thanks for the info. I thought the flare pistol in GT is for night time C2, not quite sure if AIs are using it as illumination.

I remember thinking the really bright white ones were used for illumination and others (aren’t nearly as bright) for c2. But I haven’t explicitly looked for these effects in a while, so take my recollection with a grain of salt.