Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front

Graviteam Tactics: Mius-Front

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ThunderChief Dec 27, 2020 @ 7:25am
Effective Ranges (Infantry Weapons)
Is there a quick way of seeing what the effective range of each squad is? I can see the kill/hit range, but not what the max range of the longest range weapon is.

E.g. an MG-34 HMG squad. Wikipedia says max firing range is between 4 and 5km, but that seems impractical. The game shows 700m in the kill/damage zone.

Is it fitted with a scope? How do I see the maximum range that the unit will fire at?

Thanks.
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Showing 1-15 of 22 comments
jcmiller101 Dec 27, 2020 @ 7:37am 
You need to look at any (historical) source-listed effective range as opposed to how far a projectile could potentially travel in ideal conditions.
For MG34 Wiki does say
Effective firing range:
200–2,000 m (219–2,187 yd) sight adjustments
3,500 m (3,828 yd) with tripod and telescopic sight


So 700m does sound like an outer edge of effective range.

The other thing is who is using it, the elevation of the barrel, the quality of the munitions & the terrain.
Next up is weather, temp & windage all affect flight.
So short answer is thus 'it depends...'
With ref to the scope the OOB may reflect what each unit is issued with, without research I do not know who historically got the optics (or if available) nor when & why...

Personally i think closer is better, especially with ammo availability, you want the sweet spot for accuracy & lethality.
Last edited by jcmiller101; Dec 27, 2020 @ 7:43am
Gunnerr Dec 27, 2020 @ 8:03am 
Nothing impractical, the tripod MG is equip with scope that allow the user to adjust range to fire at remote targets. Longer range, but it's more of pouring fire into enemy rather than finding individual targets.

You have the outside information, yes this is the best thing to do. 1000 meters and below already lethal, like you said. A simple Wikipedia page is already sufficient.

Effective range is not a definition of "if enemy enters this range they will get killed instantly". Effective range is describes as a range that allow the enemy to be surpressed and disrupted from completing their objectives.
Last edited by Gunnerr; Dec 27, 2020 @ 8:04am
jcmiller101 Dec 27, 2020 @ 8:29am 
This is quite interesting on the MG34
https://www.gunnuts.net/2014/01/16/the-mg-34/

Contrary to the WW2 information film, Vets I've spoken to have commented that whilst it was devastating, the 34 & 42 both allowed you to advance because they were "too accurate". The tight spread gave the attacker some blank spots that were safer. Comparatively the allied Vickers covered a huge spread.
If you research cones of fire for the selected weapon, that may help when it comes to setting up MGs & setting optimal fire cones.
Last edited by jcmiller101; Dec 27, 2020 @ 8:33am
andrey12345 v2.0  [developer] Dec 27, 2020 @ 8:41am 
Originally posted by ThunderChief:
How do I see the maximum range that the unit will fire at?

No way. The maximum firing range makes no practical sense.
andrey12345 v2.0  [developer] Dec 27, 2020 @ 8:55am 
Originally posted by ThunderChief:
Is it fitted with a scope?

Equipped, if you mean with a HMG variant. But the scope does not help in any way to overcome gravity and atmosphere.
ThunderChief Dec 27, 2020 @ 9:12am 
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andrey12345 v2.0  [developer] Dec 27, 2020 @ 10:16am 
Originally posted by jcmiller101:
For MG34 Wiki does say
Effective firing range:
200–2,000 m (219–2,187 yd) sight adjustments
3,500 m (3,828 yd) with tripod and telescopic sight
This is the aiming (sight) range, i.e. then how the sight is marked has nothing to do with the effective range.

Last edited by andrey12345 v2.0; Dec 27, 2020 @ 10:17am
jcmiller101 Dec 27, 2020 @ 1:58pm 
Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:
Originally posted by jcmiller101:
For MG34 Wiki does say
Effective firing range:
200–2,000 m (219–2,187 yd) sight adjustments
3,500 m (3,828 yd) with tripod and telescopic sight
This is the aiming (sight) range, i.e. then how the sight is marked has nothing to do with the effective range.

As an addendum to Andreys' comment:-
Incorrect use of the terminology + not having adequate knowledge of weapons & ballistics, means people can get mixed up because the English terminology is similar when referring to 2 related but different aspects of weapon capabilities.

For me, when Wiki says ''effective firing range'' it's talking about how far a projectile could travel (i.e. 'firing range').
Conversely 'effective range' is a question of lethality vs accuracy over distance (i.e. range of effectiveness vs target).
Hence the games showing 700m makes sense.

This does a decent job of summing up the general issues with the question of 'effectiveness' & how to answer it:-
http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/FactorsOfEffectiveRange
andrey12345 v2.0  [developer] Dec 27, 2020 @ 2:27pm 
Usually there are 4 types of ranges:
1) maximum - how far the projectile can fly in principle (not needed in practice).
2) sighting - how far can you aim using the mounted sight.
3) effective - how far you can hit a specific target with a specific ammunition, so that (a) ensure the probability of hitting not less than a given one (b) the shell still can cause damage to the target.
4) direct shot - how far the projectile will fly before falling to the target height relative to the throwing point.

Obviously (3) does not make sense without reference to the target and shell type. We can say "the effective range of ammunition X to the target "single soldier" is Y meters."
But the statement "effective range 200-2000m" does not make any sense.

Last edited by andrey12345 v2.0; Dec 27, 2020 @ 2:37pm
andrey12345 v2.0  [developer] Dec 27, 2020 @ 3:21pm 
Now let's get back to our rifle-caliber bullets and machine guns. Since all actions in the game take place on planet Earth, about which we know the gravity acceleration (constant in the game), and the density of the atmosphere (constant in the game). These are the main physical parameters that affect effective range. Further, the economic parameters (and associated physical ones) - the cheapest bullet materials (their density) and the caliber of the barrel - which in combination gives us mass. And the cheapest source of energy for throwing is gunpowder, and its physical characteristic is the rate of gas flow.
Well, plus the length of the barrel.

All together gives us an effective firing range at a single soldier type target from 500 to 800 meters. It will be slightly different in winter and summer, different weapons/Heavy or light bullets will also give slightly different results, but until we not change the planet, the distances will be around this range.

And all we can do, it is change the probability limit that separates the effective from the ineffective :steamhappy:.

Those. having 100500 rounds, a high rate of fire and an infinite barrel resource, you can lower the probability bias and move the effective range into the distance, but if there are two clips with 140 rounds total and a difficulty to change barrel, is better to move the distance as close as possible.
Field Marshall Dec 27, 2020 @ 10:51pm 
Im going by effective range
Rifle range 300-700m i could see a average joe hitting a target a 300m that seems to be the most hit range if you what to be a soldier the other 400m is a maybe but to be honest unlikely anything over 700m is vary much a no.

Light machine gun range. 500-700m Now this is not saying they can hit every bullet on target at this range but hit the general area of firing. I could a see a burst or two hit a target at this range. But this basically means if you have a mag fed machine gun you are going to waist 40-75% of the rounds getting the range and the other percentage dumping on the target just to kill 1-3 people maybe none. This is the reason i question the reason for the bar light machine role like how are you going to be use full with only 20 rounds?

Heavy Machine gun 700-1200m. Tripod, good sights, belt fed, vary deadly. Even seen heavy machine guns used as artillery, is this practical i have no idea probably not i'm not even sure its true.

Pistol 25-50 maybe a 100m just guessing on this pistols are generlly pretty useless on your average battlefield.

SMG 100-250m Another guess

You notice here there's lot of uncertainty on weather you hit or not. Well if you ever noticed the battle casuality's of real battles usually state that artillery is like 50-70% of the cause's makes sense why artillery is kind of important i remember seeing in the battle of caen in France that 60% pf british casuality was from mortars alone.
ThunderChief Dec 28, 2020 @ 1:01am 
Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:
Usually there are 4 types of ranges:
1) maximum - how far the projectile can fly in principle (not needed in practice).
2) sighting - how far can you aim using the mounted sight.
3) effective - how far you can hit a specific target with a specific ammunition, so that (a) ensure the probability of hitting not less than a given one (b) the shell still can cause damage to the target.
4) direct shot - how far the projectile will fly before falling to the target height relative to the throwing point.

Obviously (3) does not make sense without reference to the target and shell type. We can say "the effective range of ammunition X to the target "single soldier" is Y meters."
But the statement "effective range 200-2000m" does not make any sense.

100% agree.

When I use the Line of Fire button, it gives me a green or red line, plus the distance.

What would be really helpful to me is if the distance _number_ changes to red when the probability of hitting a target, with the longest range loaded ammunition for the longest range weapon in the squad, goes below 1.

There is perhaps a somewhat similar calculation in effect for the Indirect Fire button and the Area of Sight button. I select 81mm mortar squad, select the Indirect Fire button and the green area stops at the max range of the mortar. (How off-map 81mm mortars can fire further than their on-map counterparts is another issue). I select the Area of Sight button and it must be using the squad's optics to determine how far the mortar section leader with the binoculars can see.

So, if I select an infantry squad and select the LOF button, can it show me a red number when the probability of hitting a target at that range is <1?

I would find this useful for positioning HMG teams and snipers as well.

Toni Dec 28, 2020 @ 9:23am 
I can translate some original MG-34 firing instructions for S.m.K., s.S., and S.m.K.H. (against armored vehicles).

The instructions also illustrate the considerations mentioned above (ballistic and economical) when giving firing ranges for a specific round in relation to a target or a specific effect on the target.

There is also some interesting additional info. For example:

„f) When firing S.m.K.H. from the MG-34, only short, targeted bursts of max. 4 to 6 rounds are allowed, otherwise the strong recoil can damage the MG.“ [S.m.K.H. had a stronger propellant (with nitropenta), than the standard cartridges.]

It is a nice read. The instructions are actually ideal for the „Infantry vs tanks/SPGs“ thread, since the DLCs are now going back to 1941 when AP bullets had more relevance. I will post the translation there, but it will take some time... :)
ThunderChief Dec 29, 2020 @ 8:04am 
Originally posted by Toni:
I can translate some original MG-34 firing instructions for S.m.K., s.S., and S.m.K.H. (against armored vehicles).

The instructions also illustrate the considerations mentioned above (ballistic and economical) when giving firing ranges for a specific round in relation to a target or a specific effect on the target.

There is also some interesting additional info. For example:

„f) When firing S.m.K.H. from the MG-34, only short, targeted bursts of max. 4 to 6 rounds are allowed, otherwise the strong recoil can damage the MG.“ [S.m.K.H. had a stronger propellant (with nitropenta), than the standard cartridges.]

It is a nice read. The instructions are actually ideal for the „Infantry vs tanks/SPGs“ thread, since the DLCs are now going back to 1941 when AP bullets had more relevance. I will post the translation there, but it will take some time... :)

Danke dir Toni! Is there any info about what the expected results were from firing the AP bullets at armored vehicles? I remember seeing a translation of a Russian ATR training document that showed exactly where on various German AFVs the ATR teams needed to aim, for example just behind one of the wheels.
Toni Dec 29, 2020 @ 1:00pm 
Originally posted by ThunderChief:
Is there any info about what the expected results were from firing the AP bullets at armored vehicles?

The document mentioned above only gives very basic firing instructions for MG-34 (and the K98k rifle). In some cases a little bit of general info is given on what effects can be expected on armored vehicles. I will post the translation tomorrow.

Originally posted by ThunderChief:
I remember seeing a translation of a Russian ATR training document that showed exactly where on various German AFVs the ATR teams needed to aim, for example just behind one of the wheels.

There are, for example, the so called "Panzer-Beschusstafeln" (= "tank firing plates"), they give specific information (like target areas) for a weapon (like an ATR) in relation to a specific tank.

They are also included in the so called "H.Dv." documents. Only a tiny amount of these countless H.Dv.s is digitized and freely available. The "tank firing plates", like the ones included in H.Dv. 469/3e are not digitized. Sadly, the only way to get them, is to either make a copy in one of the archives or to buy an (overpriced) reproduction or an original. I do not have any of them. Here is an example:

https://www.aboutww2militaria.com/image/data/Nov19/panzer-beschusstafel-3-7-cm-pak-37-t-czech-10129-3.JPG

There are also other types of such "tank firing plates".
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Date Posted: Dec 27, 2020 @ 7:25am
Posts: 22