Some things need to be balanced

[Headshotkill]

I hate to say it but after playing the stepanovka campaign as russians, now on turn 5 and already at the base of Saur Mogila Tumulus I've come to the conclusion that there are some critical elements that need to be rebalanced.

Here you can see the after battle statistics of an average battle, like one I've had dosens of in this campaign so far.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1509794335
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1509794377
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1509794417
FOURTEEN well placed and angled enemy PAK40 guns and not one tank got taken out.

I wouldn't be worried if this was the result of some brilliant strategy, luck and didn't happen too often but it's not.
Basically a lot of the battles go like this:
-Germans deployed out in field or covered in some forest, sometimes fortified.
-I group about 10 T-34 tanks and about 100 infantry men
-I send of the combined arms group in a fast attack order with wide spacing onto the enemy
-I don't even bother calling in arty anymore
-My tanks quickly snipe all the german AT guns, crash into the infantry making them panick and shredding them.
-My infantry comes in lagging 100-200 meters behind to mop up the rest that survived the tanks and are still cowaring in their trenches.



Here's a couple of crucial points that I think should be balanced or are lacking.

-Russian tank crews reload and operate their main guns VERY quickly, I understand the T-34 was more than a decent tank but the main drawback was horrible crew ergonomics.

-Russian tank crews can locate and return fire VERY quicly even when suprised by multiple AT guns, T-34 weren't know for their good optics either but this changed later in the war. And in general tanks can spot small AT guns from very far away even whithout muzzle flash to give away the position.

-Tanks in general are too strong when isolated in urban or forested area and surrounded by enemy infantry. Which connects to my next point:

-Infantry lack the capacity to strategically place explosives on tanks, they always throw their grenades, most of them missing entirely. I'm not asking for the animations of soldiers climbing onto tanks but infantry should be able to "teleport" grenades and other explosives on strategic weak points of tanks if they're close enough and the tank is isolated to simulate infantry climbing onto the vehicle and directly placing the explosive.

-AT gun crews should have the advantage of faster handling their guns and having better situational awareness than most tanks which right now they seem to be inferior in.



Things that I DON'T have a problem with:

-T-34 armor strength, they were historically strong.
-T-34 accuracy

[Zero]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Not so much the hollow charge, the hollow charge AT grenade that replaced it was thrown and Russian hollow charge grenade was thrown. It's that I can't find any evidence of an impact fuse that could be fixed to it which had the piece of fabric that kept it stable in flight.

The HHL, short for Hafthohlladung is a hollow charge with a strong magnets, so it can be attached on the tanks surface. What you mean is the Panzerwurfmine (which is not ingame) or the rpg43 which uses fins so it can hit the armor in a 90 degree angle (it should in theory, but you can imagine how well it worked in practise)

Hollow charges need to hit the armor close to a 90 degree angle to be activated with a impact fuse and penetrate the armor. The HHL is not thrown and attached it has already the ideal angle and is ignited by a time fuse.

[Flan]

Yes that's what I meant by it's replacment: the Panzerwurfine.
The Russians had the RPG-43 and RPG-6

[Field Marshall]

I have a issue with German tanks mainly this one battle with stugs. I had 4-6 stugs attack a vary exposded T-34 all but 2 stugs died with them killing 4 out of 10 t-34s. But the thing is i had all my stugs right next to the t-34s driveing around look at eachother but not shooting but the russians shot. I think its a bit strange or Stalin is strong with these Russians.

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

This is going a bit off topic,
i'm still concerned there is "something" wrong since Headshot managed such an easy and overwhelming victory that shouldn't be possible and also said that it can be done repeatidly.
But can't really see where it's going wrong without seeing it first hand and I can't repeat his sucess.

What was the historic outcome of Russian tanks without infantry drivnig over and loitering on German trenches?
Did the Germans just retreat?

Well, here is a typical real-world example from the DLC that is in the game (Black Snow-Karbusel). 5xChurchill II pulled away from the infantry and got stuck in the swamp / immobilized in a minefield near the second line of the Germans' defense. Both sides could not do anything to each other. The Germans fired at tanks from whatever they can, including mortars (they inflicted a lot of minor damage, but could not get tanks to knock out). As a result, in a few days the Soviet infantry unblocked the tanks.

I wonder why the Germans did not use such steep grenades, because the tanks stood right in front of their positions immobilized and almost without ammunition?

Apparently those wishing to engage in strange things (as shown in the movies) were not found among the entire battalion.

[Flan]

Originally posted by andrey12345 v2.0:

Originally posted by Flannelette:

This is going a bit off topic,
i'm still concerned there is "something" wrong since Headshot managed such an easy and overwhelming victory that shouldn't be possible and also said that it can be done repeatidly.
But can't really see where it's going wrong without seeing it first hand and I can't repeat his sucess.

What was the historic outcome of Russian tanks without infantry drivnig over and loitering on German trenches?
Did the Germans just retreat?

Well, here is a typical real-world example from the DLC that is in the game (Black Snow-Karbusel). 5xChurchill II pulled away from the infantry and got stuck in the swamp / immobilized in a minefield near the second line of the Germans' defense.

But what happened in cases when the tanks weren't immobile and were able to attack the infantry? What was the German procedure if they had to destroy a tank or die? Try and run? Try and hide?

[andrey12345 v2.0]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

But what happened in cases when the tanks weren't immobile and were able to attack the infantry? What was the German procedure if they had to destroy a tank or die? Try and run? Try and hide?

I suspect like all normal people - hide, when the tanks drove - continue to fight. Running away from the tank is a bad decision, it rides faster and does not get tired .

[Headshotkill]

Alright, I played the campaign for a bit again and we're starting to encounter german panzers and marders. Perhaps my demise is near!

Or not...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635786
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635823
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635860
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635734


So this was a meeting engagement head on in open field between a dozen T-34 tanks (not all of them in perfect condition anymore after the campaign so far) at high speed modifier and wide spacing with about 100 infantry backing them lagging 100-200 meters behind and a group of german Panzer III's and Marders.
Steel vs steel yet still I'm mopping the floor with them, there is something wrong with the calculations I'm sure of it.
The stationary german panzers nearly missed all their shots and were very reluctant to shoot at all, my moving T-34s nearly hit all right on the bullseye combined with a higher rate of fire.

Using my limited tank shooting knowledge I gathered from playing Red orchestra 2 I know it's very difficult to shoot accurate with a tank when it's moving with all the bumps in the ground shaking the turret up and down, I mean they're T-34s not modern M1 Abrams tanks with automatic turret stabilization when moving.


At this point I'd say the game has accidently switched the accuracy values of moving tanks with stationary because my T-34s driving at high speed over some field can snipe enemy tanks from 400-500 meters away while the stationary german tanks litterally missed some shots by over 30 degrees to the side.

It didn't take long before my tanks got mixed with the german tanks as there was little resistance keeping my tanks at bay and I flank shotted the remaining german tanks still alive, this is the reason the marders are so chaotically positioned in my last screenshot, initially they were all aimed in my direction of attack.

The battle lasted less then 5 minutes I think.

[MeatPupPeT]

Lolz , " I don't even bother with off map arty anymore . " I feel ya . The action happens so fast getting a barrage out is almost impossible at times , if it comes at all . When I see a barrage come out on my initial mark it's about 20 % of the time on Operation Blau , turn 4-7 . Playing Germany .

[Flan]

Originally posted by Headshotkill:

Alright, I played the campaign for a bit again and we're starting to encounter german panzers and marders. Perhaps my demise is near!

Or not...

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635786
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635823
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635860
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1523635734


So this was a meeting engagement head on in open field between a dozen T-34 tanks (not all of them in perfect condition anymore after the campaign so far) at high speed modifier and wide spacing with about 100 infantry backing them lagging 100-200 meters behind and a group of german Panzer III's and Marders.
Steel vs steel yet still I'm mopping the floor with them, there is something wrong with the calculations I'm sure of it.
The stationary german panzers nearly missed all their shots and were very reluctant to shoot at all, my moving T-34s nearly hit all right on the bullseye combined with a higher rate of fire.

Using my limited tank shooting knowledge I gathered from playing Red orchestra 2 I know it's very difficult to shoot accurate with a tank when it's moving with all the bumps in the ground shaking the turret up and down, I mean they're T-34s not modern M1 Abrams tanks with automatic turret stabilization when moving.


At this point I'd say the game has accidently switched the accuracy values of moving tanks with stationary because my T-34s driving at high speed over some field can snipe enemy tanks from 400-500 meters away while the stationary german tanks litterally missed some shots by over 30 degrees to the side.

It didn't take long before my tanks got mixed with the german tanks as there was little resistance keeping my tanks at bay and I flank shotted the remaining german tanks still alive, this is the reason the marders are so chaotically positioned in my last screenshot, initially they were all aimed in my direction of attack.

The battle lasted less then 5 minutes I think.

Hmmm this one is more believeable.
Pz 3 don't work against T-34s so it was basically 12 T-34s + 12 lights against 5 Marders and no AT guns. More than double force in attack is enough for a quick overwhelming overrun.

The aiming on the move I'm not sure, sometimes it seems too good and other times it seems fine.

[Headshotkill]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Hmmm this one is more believeable.
Pz 3 don't work against T-34s so it was basically 12 T-34s + 12 lights against 5 Marders and no AT guns. More than double force in attack is enough for a quick overwhelming overrun.

The aiming on the move I'm not sure, sometimes it seems too good and other times it seems fine.

Yeah I don't question the armor strength of a T-34 or the power of 5cm guns but I was shocked the see how bad the accuracy of the germans was. First time I really paid attention instead of playing war journalist to get the best pics, attrocious accuracy from the marders.

[Flan]

You sure you haven't accidently set the enemy experience to low at some point?
My Marders (and guns in general) are quite good at first shot hits at 1km even if the target is moving.
You keep getting these really good victories I can't pull off
Perhapse I play it too slowly and it breaks down if you try and rush the computer.

[Flan]

Had a similar but opposite experience:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1527624210
Little battle bombed 3 marders killing one and badly breaking the other 2.
Sent in my 3 T-34 with a fast attack order expecting to mop up the survivors and the 2 remaining marders managed to knock them out and beat me even with their broken sights.
So I don't know what's up with your enemies Headshot!

[Headshotkill]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Had a similar but opposite experience:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1527624210
Little battle bombed 3 marders killing one and badly breaking the other 2.
Sent in my 3 T-34 with a fast attack order expecting to mop up the survivors and the 2 remaining marders managed to knock them out and beat me even with their broken sights.
So I don't know what's up with your enemies Headshot!

Possible the rush tactic that breaks AI.

[Headshotkill]

After a short hiatus and enjoying the new Angola DLC I resumed the main Stepanovka Campaign to see if the germans can stop my onslaught.

Good news (or rather bad news for my campaign), it seems the germans have at last smashed my armored spearhead.
During the afternoon of the second day of the offensive I was within striking distance of both Saur-mogila village and the Tumulus.
Two german infantry groups and a german armored group were tasked to defend the area in and around the village totalling over 800 men and about 10 tanks with a boatload of AT guns and Leigs.

Last update with new dlc apparantly adressed an issue where the AI doesn't use reserves in operational phase so perhaps this fix made the germans use a metric-♥♥♥♥-ton of AT guns that they had spared up in their reserves over the turns.

On the russian side I had about 4-5 infantry groups and 3 armored groups that had accumulated damage over the campaign, blunting the spearhead.
At first we smashed the german tanks without much problem around the house north of the village.
The village itself was first bombarded pre-planned for over 20 minutes with 2 artillery batteries and we probably dropped over 600 shells on the village, additionally over 100 shells were dropped on the Tumulus.

Most germans were killed during the bombardment, however we still encountered massive resistance inside the village.
A number of german AT-guns (50mm and 37mm) inside the village chewed up a lot of my tanks while infantry immobilized them with large explosives at the tracks.

We managed to rout the enemy but not without suffering catastrophic losses, 283 sovjet casualties and of the initially 50 operational vehicles I had, over 40 were knocked out of action.
Germans suffered as well and had to pay more than 10 men for every russian tank, totalling 550 casualties and 10 panzers knocked out.


We've captured the campaign objectives but it's clear that our offensive capacity has been decimated and we're not even halfway through the campaign. While I send the armored groups back to the rear to field maintenance stations for salvaging as many vehicle as possible the infantry will have to stay up front and deal with the german armore counter attack.



First assault on the house
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1563583974
Meanwhile there's little resistance at the Tumulus
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1563583899
Heavy fighting within the village (note the majority of my tanks were T-34s)
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1563584036
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1563584121

[Ezra]

No balance needed in my experience. To many "real-world" variables simulated in GT. Try setting up an infantry screen along an approaching armor axis. Set up your Pak 40`s on a distant slope with line of communications and in most cases T-34`s go up like roman candles and the anti-tank guns have a field day. The reverse is true as well. Probe enemy positions with recon. Bring up tanks in over-watch tactic. Field guns melt.

It`s all about tactics. If you want balance, use tactics with what the game provides. Thus the title Graviteam Tactics: Mius Front.