May 11 Update Battle UI changes

[♥†€XP€N$IV GRI££†♥]

So i'm really not liking the new UI for tactical battles. I'm trying to give it a chance but I find the whole design frustrating. I miss being able to select my platoons and my individual units all at the bottom of the screen. Now I find i'm moving back and forth between the bottom and the top left to manage units. It's just added an extra step for me with no noticeable benefit. There's also more information lumped into the left area making it harder for me to scan for information.

If there is a mod or any other possible way I can revert the UI for tactical battles to before the May 11 update? I was loving this game till the update. If I can't fix the UI I have no further interest in this title unfortunately; until yesterday evening I was having a great time with this. Can any one help?

[Spud]

Whenever there are changes to the user interface, especially with a game like this, then it takes time getting used to it. I understand where you're coming from, you were comfortable with how it was and had built up habits while playing the game, and now you've got to unlearn those as well as pick up some new ones, and initially that definitely impacts enjoyment.

My advice is just to stick with it, you're not the only one to bring it up, when they updated Tunisia there was a bit of a backlash, but in all honesty, once you've grown accustomed to it and you're no longer fighting muscle memory, it actually seems much less fiddley than the previous UI, at least for me, pretty soon it'll be second nature and it'll feel as though the previous system never existed.

[hamrock]

Actually once you have become used it it is actually better. Far easier to find artillery observers.

[Headshotkill]

This discussion has been on fire for over a month over at Tankwarfare Tunisia 1943. Eventually they got used to it.

[♥†€XP€N$IV GRI££†♥]

Well I put the majority of my Saturday into giving the May 11 update my best shot with a positive mindset. Now that I feel somewhat familiar with the new tactical UI system, my previous dismay has only become further entrenched.

Trying to select 2 or more squads in a platoon with a box just selects the intire platoon on the map. You can click the floating unit indicator for the platoon that now displays over the platoon comander which selects the intire platoon. You can click all you want on an individual unit but if the platoon comander is not selected for that unit, it can not be selected.

This limits you to coordinating units one platoon at a time. If you are Advancing lines or groups of infantry without their heavy weapons it takes more micro-management. Or you can click the platoon tabs on the bottom of the screen to select the whole unit then navigate to the left to co-ordinate units. Once they are separated an in combat; selecting units often selects everything in a platoon. This can make it hard to co-ordinate different elements of a platoon into one forward group while leaving elements behind as reserves or fire support.

I'm still going to try and break my old habits; learn the new system. However this update has reworked how unit management works so radically it's tedious to execute my previous tactics. It feels like I have less control. As much as i want to give this update a shot. it feels like a step backward in terms of utility.

My advice to the developer is make the previous version of the UI available to players in some fashion. A beta branch, a legacy version, an option in the settings. Something to allow players the utility of Mius-Front pre May 11 update.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I agree with OP I raged when they first introduced this UI to Tunisia. Back then they also removed the abilty to right click on the bottom icon and jump the camera to the platoon... So it was absurdly tedious to play... back and forward over and over and over again with the mouse . When the old system was very simple and eficient.

It's not a question of just learning a new way of doing things .It is that the new way is less efficient and anoyingly being forced on me against my will. This is not a subjective opinion, is is an objective fact that the mouse will have to move up and down across the screen hundreds of times more per mission when it barely had to move much in the old method.

The devs did respond to my criticism and reintroduced the right click camera fucntion. Thank you.

So now I left click to select the platoon and right click to jump the camrea to the platoon comander and then if I want to selct a squad I left click directly on the little flag above the squad comander . I can't tell which squad I am going to select untill I click it, so it is still not as efficient as the old method, but I am greatful that the devs listened to us and reintroduced the right click camera snap fucntion.

They told me in responses that I'll just have to move whole platoons and not squads from now on.. They have big plans to increae the size of battles to huge sizes...

I told them I dont want ot play bigger battles, I play 3 hr battles because the AI seems to play better when it has time for probing attacks before main assault. My PC can't fast forward these long battles when I am waiting for AI attacks, if the battle size has too many units.

I am happy with one or two reinforced companys each side per battle . That is all my PC can fast foward through action.

[vSMiLEXv]

I returned to the game last night after a few months away. I find the new UI somewhat confusing... What is the purpose of it? Is it so users only managed whole platoons? But you still need to position your units tactically, and not just like one big blob...

In the past you could select the whole platoon and individual units effortlessly. Now selecting individual units is a real pain. You can't do it by just clicking on the unit you want to select. No. You have to search for the platoon that this unit is assigned to, at the bottom of the screen, click on the platoon and then search for that unit in the left top corner of the screen...

So you can still manage units individually but there is more work to do that? I don't get it...

[Spud]

Originally posted by Smile | V.Š.:

I returned to the game last night after a few months away. I find the new UI somewhat confusing... What is the purpose of it? Is it so users only managed whole platoons? But you still need to position your units tactically, and not just like one big blob...

In the past you could select the whole platoon and individual units effortlessly. Now selecting individual units is a real pain. You can't do it by just clicking on the unit you want to select. No. You have to search for the platoon that this unit is assigned to, at the bottom of the screen, click on the platoon and then search for that unit in the left top corner of the screen...

So you can still manage units individually but there is more work to do that? I don't get it...

I am now completely comfortable wth the UI, but I would prefer something similar to the suggestion I made a few months ago (can't find the topic), where the default UI shows only the battlegoup/s, but hovering over a battlegroup opens up corresponding platoon tabs, and then hovering over a particular platoon tab opens the squad tabs all at the bottom of the screen, IMO a cleaner system overall, more intuitive and with much less mouse and eye movement required.

Here is the graphic I mocked up to illustrate
https://imgur.com/wQRFcyo
With hindsight it would be better if the battlegroup tabs were positioned along the bottom and the corresponding platoon/squad tabs opened up above, selecting an individual battlegroup, platoon or squad could occur with a single click and the screen would remain much less cluttered as a result.

[vSMiLEXv]

Originally posted by Murdoch:

I would prefer the suggestion I made a few months ago or something similar (can't find the topic), where the default UI shows only the battlegoup/s, but clicking (hovering?) on a battlegroup opens up corresponding platoon tabs, and clicking/hovering on a particular platoon tab opens the squad tabs all at the bottom of the screen

It still doesn't solve the issue of selecting individual squads on the map - it has completely disappeared. Now when you click on them, you select the whole platoon. You have to go through the list of platoons instead, to select an individual unit. This is just a nuisance - still possible, but made more complex, time consuming, and less intuitive, in my opinion.

I would understand the logic if the developers wanted to make us only manage the platoons and removed the ability to manage separate squads, but they didn't do that. You can still manage squads, but it is just much more difficult now.

I might play around with it a bit longer to see the benefits of the new UI, but at the moment I just don't get it. They made a lot of good changes with GTMF in comparison with GTOS, but this one is an odd one.

[Spud]

The devs have made no secret of the fact that they see these games as best played tactically at the platoon level, they do give us the option to manage at the squad level, although it seems that this is something they wish to discourage, but then they add features like the ability to divide squads up into even smaller sub units, which increases micromanagement and seems at first glance to be counter to their intentions.

The trouble is I don't think the game always manages squads very well tactically, things like squad by squad bounding, coordinated platoon level cover, suppress and move, flank attacks or fighting withdrawals just don't seem to occur very effectively if left to the AI.

Personally I think they need to decide once and for all where the chain of command ends for the player, at least during the battle phase, if they want it to be strictly platoon based then that's fine, but they need to equip the AI with more tactical nouse and allow the player to at least initiate some standard tactical doctrinal behaviours via the command system, for example not only 'Attack position A', but 'Flank attack Position A', 'Bounding attack against Position A' or 'Break contact and initiate a fighting withdrawal to position B' etc. Or if they wish to continue allowing squad management then it needs to be easier and more intuitive.

Having said that I tend to issue many more squad/sub-squad orders during the initial orders phase where it's possible to manufacture doctrinal tactical maneuvering without fear of running out of command points (although the players ability to craft complex attacks is severely limited by the lack of knowledge about enemy deployment), but once the battle begins I notice I am issuing the majority of the very few commands I give at the platoon level, perhaps this is what the devs are aiming for, giving the players the ability to get super complex during the planning phase and reverting to a system of broad tactical brushstrokes once the chaos begins, in which case they are not really too far from achieving that, but as said above, the AI needs to be far more effective in my opinion to make it work well.

[vSMiLEXv]

Originally posted by Murdoch:

but then they add features like the ability to divide squads up into even smaller sub units, which increases micromanagement and seems at first glance to be counter to their intentions.

How do you divide squads? This might somewhat solve my issue.

Originally posted by Murdoch:

Personally I think they need to decide once and for all where the chain of command ends for the player, at least during the battle phase

Agree.

Originally posted by Murdoch:

I tend to issue many more squad/sub-squad orders during the initial orders phase where it's possible to manufacture doctrinal tactical maneuvering without fear of running out of command points

It is ok when attacking, because the platoon can spread out per your orders, but I have noticed that if you just send the platoon to defend an objective, they all clump up upon arriving, which is not good when defending. Hell, even when attacking, I like to issue individual orders/destinations/objectives for different squads. Might be less realistic, but it is more tactical and you have more control over the outcome of the battle, which is more enjoyable, in my opinion. It is a game, after all. I like to feel good about a neatly executed flank by several squads, or by tactical retreat with some squads holding off the attackers while their comrades escape to the next line of defense. It requires individually controlling squads. Even when something goes wrong - it is your mistake, not AI's.

Originally posted by Murdoch:

but once the battle begins I notice I am issuing the majority of the very few commands I give at the platoon level, perhaps this is what the devs are aiming for, giving the players the ability to get super complex during the planning phase and reverting to a system of broad tactical brushstrokes once the chaos begins, in which case they are not really too far from achieving that.

Maybe. In that case, they need to improve AI, as you said, and just remove the option of controlling individual squads, which would be quite a change.

[Spud]

Originally posted by Smile | V.Š.:

How do you divide squads?

Use Shift or Alt key to select one of 2 sub teams, you'll see the I & II on the squad tab turn blue to indicate which is selected, by default of course both are blue for a selected squad, it's particularly useful for seperating vehicles from infantry.

Originally posted by Smile | V.Š.:

I like to feel good about a neatly executed flank by several squads, or by tactical retreat with some squads holding off the attackers while their comrades escape to the next line of defense. It requires individually controlling squads. Even when something goes wrong - it is your mistake, not AI's.

I agree with this, although if the AI was capable of performing such complex tasks then you would still get the satisfaction of coming up with the correct tactical approach, I'd be quite happy to not have to chain a complex series of commands in order to achieve the results, and leave the tactics up to my platoon commanders, if only we had the ability to guide the AI with commands like 'flank attack' etc.

Originally posted by Smile | V.Š.:

Maybe. In that case, they need to improve AI, as you said, and just remove the option of controlling individual squads, which would be quite a change.

I would love to see this happen, I think leaving the squads available tactically is the devs way of conceding that the AI is just not good enough at this stage to force the player to issue platoon only commands.

No game is perfect so we have to also acknowledge the things that are great, it's still the best game of its type out there, the fact that this game even exists is something I'm grateful for, and for such a small development team they have achieved some amazing things, of course they keep on improving and adding to the concept, so who knows where things may get even better in the future.

[vSMiLEXv]

Originally posted by Murdoch:

Use Shift or Alt key to select one of 2 sub teams, you'll see the I & II on the squad tab turn blue to indicate which is selected, by default of course both are blue for a selected squad, it's particularly useful for seperating vehicles from infantry.

Thanks a lot!

Originally posted by Murdoch:

No game is perfect so we have to also acknowledge the things that are great, it's still the best game of its type out there, the fact that this game even exists is something I'm grateful for, and for such a small development team they have achieved some amazing things, of course they keep on improving and adding to the concept, so who knows where things may get even better in the future.

Agree. The devs deserve all the credit for creating and still developing this game. I am not necessarily criticizing them, but rather providing my feedback on the matter. They really are doing a great job!

[Spud]

Originally posted by Smile | V.Š.:

Agree. The devs deserve all the credit for creating and still developing this game. I am not necessarily criticizing them, but rather providing my feedback on the matter. They really are doing a great job!

Of course, critical feedback is perhaps more important and certainly more valuable than praise, and the devs have shown that they do take it on board and sometimes make the changes the community wants.

[♥†€XP€N$IV GRI££†♥]

I really enjoy the game and I appreciate the changes, even the effort made to improve the tactical UI. However I think there still needs to be work done. The 2 main problems I see with it right now:

1. Selecting squads is clumsy
2. UI is maybe a bit to large / disorganised.

This new system has also made co-ordinating elements from seperate platoons difficult.
I miss being able to click directly on a squads to select them. Sometimes to control a specific squad I need to click 2 or 3 platoons till I find the right one; then click on the left squad tab till I select the right squad. Before I could click on a specific squad and issue orders straight to it. I find the AI to be on the basic side for orders. So I usually have to issue squad orders frequently. Especially to the valuable heavy equipment which will get itself killed in some situations I can make it avoid/prevail.

Murdoch's Idea sounds interesting. It might not even need the top BG layer. My biggest problem with point 2 is navigating around the screen frequently to select platoons and squads; either using the bottom bar or tactical map is a bit clumsy. I'm either missing a valuable keyboard command or it could be smoother.

I think the unit stats laid out on the left tab is fine. However if squads and platoons are on the bottom it might make sense to have unit stats down there as well. Maybe reorganize the whole bottom of the screen to consolidate more information somewhat like a more traditional tactical game (SC2, COH). SC2 & COH communicate much less information and are much simpler; but I think the UI could use the same amount of space at the bottom, to consolidate information and control to the player.

Despite my issues I still play this game allot post update, but I am pausing more frequently and spending more time paused solely for UI navigation. This isn't ideal.

[vSMiLEXv]

Originally posted by ♥†€XP€N$IV GRI££†♥:

Despite my issues I still play this game allot post update, but I am pausing more frequently and spending more time paused solely for UI navigation. This isn't ideal.

Same.