Flak 36 dug in, field of fire

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

I'm really enjoying the new campaign and the new orders system has definitely improved the game IMO.

I've read about how the Germans had to try to lure the KV's into range and destroy them with Flak 88mm. As this was the only weapon that could take down the big Russian tanks. This is fascinating history to me and the map gives us lots of room play out this scenario.

One of he issues I am having though is that the Flak 36 when dug in has very limited field of fire.

The sides of the dug out are so high that the barrel can only point in one direction . Of course the big gun cannot reverse out of the dugout like all other heavy weapons can, to change field of fire.

It seems hard for me to believe that the commander would give up the ability of the gun to rotate 360 degrees, as most AT can't do this and it is a huge advantage.

I googled dug in Flak 36 to see what they historically did. I couldn't find any pictures from the war with the Flak 36 dug in, in such a way as to restrict rotation and field of fire.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS1OEnWUEmDsgBcKLFD72dxgzIjDwF4f8Qv8mMtHIow-JyV_6Mo


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-443-1599-20,_Nordafrika,_bei_Bir_Hacheim,_feuernde_Flak.2.jpg

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737049531

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

If I could I would probably choose not to dig in my Flak 36 in this case and just place them far in the rear so they can freely target any thing in line of sight.

But of course we cannot chose to dig in or not, as we could in operation star.

PS. I also miss the ability to save the positions of my defences between battles as we could in operation star.

[Flan]

Yes but it's better than it was when if was first but in the game! (couldn't hit anything that wasn't right in front)
The ones in the photos are similar to the first stage trench you can have in the game. the heavy trench is more like a firing slit that you have to carefully place.
I'm split on it, yes it's useful to have a full firing arc but the flak88 is soooooo hilariously easy to spot and sooooo vulnerable compared to other at guns that you really don't want something so valuable to be splatted quickly.

Originally posted by Dirty Rotten Flieger:

But of course we cannot chose to dig in or not, as we could in operation star.

You sort of can now by not giving a defence order with the indirect orders system but it affects the entire group.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

Yes but it's better than it was when if was first but in the game! (couldn't hit anything that wasn't right in front)
The ones in the photos are similar to the first stage trench you can have in the game. the heavy trench is more like a firing slit that you have to carefully place.
I'm split on it, yes it's useful to have a full firing arc but the flak88 is soooooo hilariously easy to spot and sooooo vulnerable compared to other at guns that you really don't want something so valuable to be splatted quickly.

Originally posted by Dirty Rotten Flieger:

But of course we cannot chose to dig in or not, as we could in operation star.

You sort of can now by not giving a defence order with the indirect orders system but it affects the entire group.

Usually I would agree here, but even when dug in enemy tanks have no real trouble to spot and hit them. Had one fight in the campaign during midnight when two T-34 came within 500 m of my dug in guns. 88s opened up, missed and before the second shot was on the way the T-34 had rotated the turret a little and hit one gun spot on. The second gun followed right after. They did not even have time to hit one T-34. Granted the tanks were driving more or less head on towards their position, but overall I was sometimes surprised in this campaign playtrough just how fast T-34 and KV-1 spot and engage dug in guns in good cover.

Overall entrenched 88s are trading big advantages for big disadvantages in both situations. In my opinion there is no real net benefit from digging them in except a little better crew survivability.

[Flan]

They're real good for indirect weapons, the gunner is up off the ground so without the trench he usually eats a fragment any time a mortar goes off nearby.

[Zephyr]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

They're real good for indirect weapons, the gunner is up off the ground so without the trench he usually eats a fragment any time a mortar goes off nearby.

Yes, but the trench offers only a little more protection. Those 76.2 mm cannister shots the russian tanks carry so often are really nasty against guns and infantry in general. Love them when I pay russians hate them when I play a german campaign. I find them much more effective than HE shells.

[Flan]

The shrap shell's balls can hit the gunner through the font plate (either through the sight holr or they're able to get through the armor!) so they're a very dangerous shell for the 88
They're probably the best anti gun shell in the game even if they're a relic.

Also tanks ability to hit guns (and other tanks I guess) first shot while on the move 1km is still nothing short of legendary!
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737167622
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737167736

The gunners are able calculate and pull the trigger the millisecond the bouncing gun lines up with the right spot to fire.

[Zephyr]

Yes that is my impression as well. Guns (had very bad experiences with 88s) seem to be much more likely to miss first shot. Also in Fateful Strike I had some fun fights between 88s and tanks with 1.3 km-1.6 km distance beween them. Both missed a lot, but it was still a very close thing for the 88s in many cases (lost sometimes too). They were still spotted easily enough and at those distances they tend to use HE shells instead of AP for some reason.

[Flan]

They'll use HE at that range because their outdated AP shells won't work on the better tanks that far away. I don't think any of them get pzg 39 in that campaign.

[Zephyr]

Yeah probably true, they get Pzgr. 39 in 1943 campaigns only.

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

Originally posted by Flannelette:

You sort of can now by not giving a defence order with the indirect orders system but it affects the entire group.

Oh I didn't know that. Thanks !
With an extra turn I could dig the whole battle group in then turn off the shield and place everybody in the already dug trenches and move the 88's to a different spot so they are above ground.

That should do it. I've had good results with the 88 at very long range. 1200m to 1500m. At those ranges the Russian 76mm tank guns are not accurate enough to hit the 88 before the 88 hits it. At least "on average".


I love the way the shell arrives before the sound wave does when I watch an incoming round from the targets point of view.

[ThunderChief]

I agree that Soviet tanks tend to be able to spot and hit 88s very easily. I recently had an engagement and from 1km driving downhill a KV-1 was able to instantly return fire and kill my 88 with a single shot, having already taken a shot to the engine cover with no damage.

Also I have experienced similar insta kills from long distance in darkness or poor light conditions.

[ThunderChief]

PS (can't edit in steam app) the KV-1 was driving down a small hill but the 88 that shot at it was on higher ground. I don't know how anyone in the tank saw that far and that high up based on the angle the tank was driving at.

[Zephyr]

Made a few shots. The cannister shot shrapnels definitely go through the gun shield. This is the main problem for the 88s (and guns in general) I think. They have quite poor accuracy over long distance and while they have to directly hit a tank those cannister shells are deadly when they explode 15 m away.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737644744

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737644983

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737645075

Essentially in this test four 88s and four ZIS-3 fought 5 T-34 and 2 howitzers at long range and the guns had quite a bad time. I did not play it to the end and while the tanks are badly damaged they could still shoot. In this match up the fight could have gone either way and it reflects what I often see in campaigns too.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737645225

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1737645179

[Headshotkill]

@Zephyr I personally think the problem is moving tanks are waaaay to accurate compared to stationary guns.

[cyclical1]

yeah, moving tanks are too accurate