Org. Todt Bautruppe?

[Ernst_Lindemann]

I got the Org. Todt Unit and find it absolutely worthless. It can basicly just build bridges, just like any engineers can. I have no option on the unit panel to build fortifications or repair anything. I thought they could build airstrips and stuff like that. Nothing! What a waste of research points.

Also, the SS doesnt get the vet bonus if you buy new units, even if you have the "Auftragstaktic". So basicly the "Elite Units" of the Gerrmans are weaker than the regular wehrmacht. You could make the SS maybe a slight bit expensive, but give them 2 stars veterancy from the start.

[cool]

Bautruppe can also clear mines and gets expericence for that. And of course deploy some mines but that costs RPs. It does not build fortifications per se but speeds up the entrenching of adjacent units. Repairing is automatic and only happens when the unit is in a damaged supply hex. Yeah, it is not worth much but at the end I had nothing else to take.

I agree with what you said about the SS. It needs tweaking.

[Nickster]

Absoluelty agree about the SS. Far too weak and underwhelming at the moment. Need to be buffed. I think SS troops should have a similar advanatge as Marines do to Army in the Pacific Campaign.

[erik.nygaard]

Remember that the SS were not neccesarily elite soldiers. They were maybe fanatical and were often given the best equipment.

[Naughty Mouse]

In the game you dont really get elite troops, but you do get more at base level of SS 6 more deployment points. This means if you dont take them, you will have less troops on the field.

As for the Bautruppen, they are 1 point units, so if you end up with a left over point, you can choose to take them, put them in the rear and mine aproaches to prevent enemy ambushing you.

[oddball]

Why on earth would you waste resources on mines in an attacking scenario lol. You should never need them, the ai literally won't move until you wake them up by crossing a trigger zone or getting into view. If you've got a spare command point you're better off motorizing something than taking that worthless piece of crap todt unit.

The SS is already very strong. In the first German campaign it nets you an extra 6 land slots + bonus income + a separate cash pool + a unique unit. No other upgrade gives you anything like as much benefit.

[Nickster]

Originally posted by fish:

Why on earth would you waste resources on mines in an attacking scenario lol. You should never need them, the ai literally won't move until you wake them up by crossing a trigger zone or getting into view. If you've got a spare command point you're better off motorizing something than taking that worthless piece of crap todt unit.

The SS is already very strong. In the first German campaign it nets you an extra 6 land slots + bonus income + a separate cash pool + a unique unit. No other upgrade gives you anything like as much benefit.

True, its extra infantry and resources...but they might as well be additional units of janitors...They fight like amatuers, dont start out with any experiance and are essentially additional german infantry. SS troops should be their own infantry class with buffs similar to how Marines are better fighters than US Army infantrymen in the Pacific and US Marine campaigns.

They had better equipment, were more mechanized, more training, more experiance and were generally favored in all major operations over regular army units. Especially at Kursk when they were the Vanguard in the Southern portion of the offensive.

Only later in the war were they more fanatical and less experianced due to heavy losses sustained before and during 1943.

[oddball]

Let's not get sucked into historical BS in a game where logistics means your colored line isn't bisected by an enemy colored line. In balance terms they're an upgrade of literally unmatched power in the campaign.

If you want your SS dudes to be heavily mechanized, spend their money on mechanizing them. They get more CP per command point than your regulars so you can afford to do it. I prefer to set them up as artillery and infantry because I can never get enough of either.

[Ernst_Lindemann]

I still dont get if you have the "auftragstactic" and the bonus for armored units unlocked, why the SS units dont get the 1 star the regular units would get. You would think the training would then be the same for all the german armed forces.

[Assaulted Peanut]

Originally posted by Ernst_Lindemann:

I still dont get if you have the "auftragstactic" and the bonus for armored units unlocked, why the SS units dont get the 1 star the regular units would get. You would think the training would then be the same for all the german armed forces.

Because obviously the Waffen SS is regarded as a "seperate faction" in OoB. The specialization system only works for your Wehrmacht units (when playing the official content).

[Magni]

Originally posted by Nickster:

True, its extra infantry and resources...but they might as well be additional units of janitors...They fight like amatuers, dont start out with any experiance and are essentially additional german infantry. SS troops should be their own infantry class with buffs similar to how Marines are better fighters than US Army infantrymen in the Pacific and US Marine campaigns.

They had better equipment, were more mechanized, more training, more experiance and were generally favored in all major operations over regular army units. Especially at Kursk when they were the Vanguard in the Southern portion of the offensive.

Only later in the war were they more fanatical and less experianced due to heavy losses sustained before and during 1943.

The original Waffen SS formations were drawn together from party loyalists and old fighters from the street battles on the '20s. They had enthusiasm, and little else to recommend them. Their equipment was whatever they could beg, buy or steal together, as the Wehrmacht had first pick on everything and considered them dubiously-useful amateurs with a penchant of wasting lives and equipment needlessly through their fanaticism.

Some Waffen SS units eventually evolved into highly-equipped elite formations (with Himmler&Co investing a ton of exra political pull with Hitler to get that equipment instead of it beings sent to the Heer), but the majority of them remained the underequipped, overenthusiastic amateurs the whole thing started out as.

Giving them bonuses akin to Marines would be ludicrous - Marines were specifically trained, organised and equipped in a different fashion copared to regular Army troops. Waffen SS formations were not.

[Ernst_Lindemann]

You have absolutely no clue on history. Your comment is a waste of space.

[Magni]

Originally posted by Ernst_Lindemann:

You have absolutely no clue on history. Your comment is a waste of space.

At whom exactly are you adressing this? (Also, you're not exactly making much of an argument or providing much of any value with a vapid statement like that.)

[Ernst_Lindemann]

Originally posted by Magni:

Originally posted by Ernst_Lindemann:

You have absolutely no clue on history. Your comment is a waste of space.

At whom exactly are you adressing this? (Also, you're not exactly making much of an argument or providing much of any value with a vapid statement like that.)

I was adressing you. If you had any clue on the subject you wouldn't talk such nonsense. First of all, the german military conduct and training has basicly been the same since military reform through clausewitz. The Officer Corps of the Waffen SS was established from Veterans of the Great War, they went through the cadett-corps of the Kaiser-Reich. The Basic-Training of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS had the same procedure - duhhh - since they both used the same weapons. To claim they were just recruited from "Street Fighters" is so ridiculous and laughable, that I doubt any sane person can accept this as reasonable answer. In many Documentarys it has been stated that the Waffen-SS was considered the "Fire Police of the Front" and all Wehrmacht Units were happy if they had such a Unit as their neighbor, it is also a fact that the Waffen-SS was equiped first with the newest available technology. So yeah, they were way superrior to regular units, that is an established fact. And historians have stated, that to achieve victory against the Wehrmacht in the offensive, you needed an advantage ratio of at least 10:1. So if that is the Wehrmacht, what would it be against the Waffen-SS?
And I didn't bother writting an esay on military history here, because it is a bloody stupid game and anyone with the slightest clue knows the truth.

[Magni]

Originally posted by Ernst_Lindemann:

I was adressing you. If you had any clue on the subject you wouldn't talk such nonsense. First of all, the german military conduct and training has basicly been the same since military reform through clausewitz. The Officer Corps of the Waffen SS was established from Veterans of the Great War, they went through the cadett-corps of the Kaiser-Reich. The Basic-Training of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS had the same procedure - duhhh - since they both used the same weapons. To claim they were just recruited from "Street Fighters" is so ridiculous and laughable, that I doubt any sane person can accept this as reasonable answer. In many Documentarys it has been stated that the Waffen-SS was considered the "Fire Police of the Front" and all Wehrmacht Units were happy if they had such a Unit as their neighbor, it is also a fact that the Waffen-SS was equiped first with the newest available technology. So yeah, they were way superrior to regular units, that is an established fact. And historians have stated, that to achieve victory against the Wehrmacht in the offensive, you needed an advantage ratio of at least 10:1. So if that is the Wehrmacht, what would it be against the Waffen-SS?
And I didn't bother writting an esay on military history here, because it is a bloody stupid game and anyone with the slightest clue knows the truth.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wow. If I had any clue? Well, I evidently have literally infinitely more of a clue than you do, kiddo. Which admittedly is not that hard, because you demonstratably know literally LESS THAN NOTHING about the topic.

Like ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, you're literally completely ignoring the Reichswehr years and the reforms and changes in doctrine instituted during them that made the Wehrmacht into what it was. "German military conduct and training had basicly[sic] been the same since Clauseqitz"? Wow, so what you're saying is the german military in 1939 was still oeprating as a pre-WWI army. That is so ludicrously idiotic and ignorant, it practiclaly by itself disqualifies you from ever being taken serious on anythign regarding military history. You're also completely ignoring that the Waffen SS was a political force, established first and foremost out of SS members. They drew their original cadre from Hitler's personal bodyguard, SS-controlled police forces and the SS' concentration camp guard details.

And no, the Waffen SS tended to run their own training programs, and while they followed the same doctrine as the regular Heer on paper, their methodology differed in a lot of ways. And again, you're being completely ignorant about the way the SS Verfügunstruppe (what later grew into the Waffen SS) was originally founded and armed. It was distrusted by the military and had to procure its equipment by itself, out of its own seperate budget, as it was given LOWEST priority for equipment and recruits from army channels. Meaning literally everybody else got first pick and the SS was only allowed to buy the leftovers. This lead to especially early Vefügungstruppe/Waffen SS formations having to scramble to get anything at all, let alone a full complement of line equipment. So they had to adopt older or more obscure equipment that the Heer had no interest in during that time just to be able to fill out their ToEs.

Again, this only began to change for some SS divisions later on in the war, when Himmler's political influence grew compared to the army leadership and he secured better access to recruits and equipment that allowed the SS to field actual armored and motorised divisions.

"Many documentaries" are also ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nonsense History Channel crap, which overhypes the party darlings beyond all sanity and reason. The job as a "fire brigade" was a classic one for any motorised or armored formation the Germans had. And the Army never liked the Waffen SS, given at their best they did not perform any better than similar-armed Heer formations, while regularily and needlessly suffering far heavier losses through their habit of trying to substitute ideological zeal for osund tactics. As for them getting the newest stuff first, please provide a citation. Because funny that, I cannot seem to remember a single case of this actually happening. And mind you all of that is for the big "elite" darling formations of the Waffen SS, not the rest of them, like the various Foreign Legion-style units Himmler established, which were commonly utterly worthless for anything but commiting atrocities behind the frontline.

So no, outside of propaganda, the Waffen SS were little more than political darlings that were in no way superior to Heer units of the same type, and regularily performed worse. Funny, which historians stated that you needed 10:1 advantages against the Wehrmacht? Please, name them, so I can laugh at them. Because get this, the Germans were practically never outnumbered that much on the operational or strategic level, unless you count the final weeks in 1945 when their whole military was collapsing. And if it would take 10:1 against the Wehrmacht, then against the common Waffen SS conterpart, I'd expect ~7-8:1 to be sufficient and result in the SS taking considerably harsher losses in the process than the regulars because of their habit of going off half-♥♥♥♥♥♥ and launching ill-advised frontal attacks at the drop of a hat.

Dude, calling your ignorant half-baked nonsense based on little but old nazi propaganda "the truth" does not actually make it so outside of your personal delusions. History is not on your side in this. The Waffen SS were nothing special outside of propaganda, received no special trianing or changes in their organisation compared to regular Heer formations and on average did not perform any better than regular Heer formations of the same type, but rather routinely performed worse than them due to a miture of ideological fanaticism and nurturing an officer core and leadership style that demanded aggression even in situation in which patience was more appropriate. Deal with it.

[h3llf1re]

Originally posted by Magni:

Originally posted by Ernst_Lindemann:

I was adressing you. If you had any clue on the subject you wouldn't talk such nonsense. First of all, the german military conduct and training has basicly been the same since military reform through clausewitz. The Officer Corps of the Waffen SS was established from Veterans of the Great War, they went through the cadett-corps of the Kaiser-Reich. The Basic-Training of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS had the same procedure - duhhh - since they both used the same weapons. To claim they were just recruited from "Street Fighters" is so ridiculous and laughable, that I doubt any sane person can accept this as reasonable answer. In many Documentarys it has been stated that the Waffen-SS was considered the "Fire Police of the Front" and all Wehrmacht Units were happy if they had such a Unit as their neighbor, it is also a fact that the Waffen-SS was equiped first with the newest available technology. So yeah, they were way superrior to regular units, that is an established fact. And historians have stated, that to achieve victory against the Wehrmacht in the offensive, you needed an advantage ratio of at least 10:1. So if that is the Wehrmacht, what would it be against the Waffen-SS?
And I didn't bother writting an esay on military history here, because it is a bloody stupid game and anyone with the slightest clue knows the truth.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Wow. If I had any clue? Well, I evidently have literally infinitely more of a clue than you do, kiddo. Which admittedly is not that hard, because you demonstratably know literally LESS THAN NOTHING about the topic.

Like ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, you're literally completely ignoring the Reichswehr years and the reforms and changes in doctrine instituted during them that made the Wehrmacht into what it was. "German military conduct and training had basicly[sic] been the same since Clauseqitz"? Wow, so what you're saying is the german military in 1939 was still oeprating as a pre-WWI army. That is so ludicrously idiotic and ignorant, it practiclaly by itself disqualifies you from ever being taken serious on anythign regarding military history. You're also completely ignoring that the Waffen SS was a political force, established first and foremost out of SS members. They drew their original cadre from Hitler's personal bodyguard, SS-controlled police forces and the SS' concentration camp guard details.

And no, the Waffen SS tended to run their own training programs, and while they followed the same doctrine as the regular Heer on paper, their methodology differed in a lot of ways. And again, you're being completely ignorant about the way the SS Verfügunstruppe (what later grew into the Waffen SS) was originally founded and armed. It was distrusted by the military and had to procure its equipment by itself, out of its own seperate budget, as it was given LOWEST priority for equipment and recruits from army channels. Meaning literally everybody else got first pick and the SS was only allowed to buy the leftovers. This lead to especially early Vefügungstruppe/Waffen SS formations having to scramble to get anything at all, let alone a full complement of line equipment. So they had to adopt older or more obscure equipment that the Heer had no interest in during that time just to be able to fill out their ToEs.

Again, this only began to change for some SS divisions later on in the war, when Himmler's political influence grew compared to the army leadership and he secured better access to recruits and equipment that allowed the SS to field actual armored and motorised divisions.

"Many documentaries" are also ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nonsense History Channel crap, which overhypes the party darlings beyond all sanity and reason. The job as a "fire brigade" was a classic one for any motorised or armored formation the Germans had. And the Army never liked the Waffen SS, given at their best they did not perform any better than similar-armed Heer formations, while regularily and needlessly suffering far heavier losses through their habit of trying to substitute ideological zeal for osund tactics. As for them getting the newest stuff first, please provide a citation. Because funny that, I cannot seem to remember a single case of this actually happening. And mind you all of that is for the big "elite" darling formations of the Waffen SS, not the rest of them, like the various Foreign Legion-style units Himmler established, which were commonly utterly worthless for anything but commiting atrocities behind the frontline.

So no, outside of propaganda, the Waffen SS were little more than political darlings that were in no way superior to Heer units of the same type, and regularily performed worse. Funny, which historians stated that you needed 10:1 advantages against the Wehrmacht? Please, name them, so I can laugh at them. Because get this, the Germans were practically never outnumbered that much on the operational or strategic level, unless you count the final weeks in 1945 when their whole military was collapsing. And if it would take 10:1 against the Wehrmacht, then against the common Waffen SS conterpart, I'd expect ~7-8:1 to be sufficient and result in the SS taking considerably harsher losses in the process than the regulars because of their habit of going off half-♥♥♥♥♥♥ and launching ill-advised frontal attacks at the drop of a hat.

Dude, calling your ignorant half-baked nonsense based on little but old nazi propaganda "the truth" does not actually make it so outside of your personal delusions. History is not on your side in this. The Waffen SS were nothing special outside of propaganda, received no special trianing or changes in their organisation compared to regular Heer formations and on average did not perform any better than regular Heer formations of the same type, but rather routinely performed worse than them due to a miture of ideological fanaticism and nurturing an officer core and leadership style that demanded aggression even in situation in which patience was more appropriate. Deal with it.

Hier glänzt ja jemand mit gesundem Halbwissen, Respekt!!

Nur weil du mehr Text schreibst als dein Vorredner wird es leider nicht richtiger.

Sicherlich war der Kampfwert etlicher Waffen-SS Einheiten weder besser noch schlechter als der von Wehrmachtseinheiten, aber es gab eben noch Elite-(Groß)Verbände, die sehr wohl “besser“ waren und die neueste Ausrüstung erhielten.
Zudem gab es grundsätzliche Unterschiede in der Organisation, die zu einem höheren Kampfwert führten, z.b. Eingliederung zusätzlicher Btl/Abt in Divisionen.

Jedenfalls ist es auch für mich nicht nachvollziehbar weshalb sich dies alles nicht im Spiel wiederfindet.