What we were expecting, what you gave us

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

So what we were expecting was panzer corps covered in Warhammer Juice with maybe slight modifications to include different attack types and maybe different ranges.
Which would have been absolutely fine and wonderful.

What we got, was something that doesn't make any sense at all, mechanically and in some cases universe wise.

Universe so far:
What you Said: Exterminatus means destruction of the whole planet.
What you meant to say: Excutus means the excution of a single officer.

Mechanical Problems:
1. Shootas and Lasguns hurt tanks? You're kidding right?
2. Infantry are mostly unless except you have to have them to capture objectives in areas vehicles can't move in. They die way too easily and cost too much for what you get out of them.
3. You can have infinite numbers of units that should be highly restricted (Titans, Marines, etc.)
4. There appears to be no real form of suppression, no matter how bad the moral is, a unit still fights back with just about has much as it had with full moral it seems.
5. Experience does what now?
6. Where is my reinforce with Experienced Troops Button? This would be the only way to keep experience and keep units alive in most cases.
7. Why do you get so very little prestige in the first two acts? I mean you really do get next to nothing to work with if a unit dies and they have a high mortality rate.
8. Cover seems to only work when it wants to, you can reload an enemy autosave and get completely different results with units being attacked in 50% fortifications. Sometime just watching Orks roll up and wipe out full strength 4+ skull infantry in a fortification and others doing 0 damage. - So your RNG generator is a bit on the extremes.
9. You are limited to very very small number of units compared to the enemy.
10. You want me to hold out for how long at the end of act 1? 15 turns? And I'm just going to replace all of these units I've worked so hard to keep alive? Why did I work so hard to keep them alive if they are just being replaced and their experience they earned is now pointless?
11. Where are the elite guard troops? With the hellguns?

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

In short, I'd ask for my money back if you would give it back to me.

[Logliu]

1. There is a small chance yes. For any individual lasgun shot the chance is very low, but since there are so many shots, light and even medium armor will tend to take light damage.

As for shottas, when the player will be using a mostly armored force having them be completely helpless would be foolish, hence they have 25% ap iirc. It makes it so you can't steamroll with a mechanized force just by existing.

2. Not really, terminators with assault cannons are one of the few units I have that'll wipe out a full strength grot unit. Admittedly infantry are harder to use compared to tanks, but they get twice the benefit from cover and are better on the defense.

3. Your core force unit count is limited -_-

That said, its a game, some sepension of disbelief is usually required. As for lore explainations there are some.

Titans: Armageddon was home to a Titan Legion. Although lore wise they were wasted (that mission you escort 1 of them) you could say that some survived to retreat or more came with the other imperial reinforcements.

Space Marines: THere are two ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ CHAPTER MASTERS that LIKE you and 3 chapter active. It is not hard to believe that there are well over a thousand marines present or more. There could be 2 thousand and still be lore acceptable. Several hundred helping the Imperials directly is not inconceivable. As said in game they do not have to listen, but due to your exploits they heed you.

4. Low moral has rather nasty effects. It lowers your accuracy by 10-20% and initiative by 2-5. This basically means you hit less, and if attacked get to shoot back less.

5. +1 initiative, +5% unit accuracy (flat, so 80%+5% is 85%) and -2% accuracy recieved. I can;t remember if its unit or weapon accuracy.

6. It can be fairly easy to build some exp, although late game it is hard to build it on weaker/less used units.

7. Are you meaning glory? Its largely based off of combat and unit costs I think. So with units like stompas as compared to infantry coming into the fray you get more.

Do you mean requisition? Each mission has a set amount. If you took losses your remaining total unit cost is compared to the next missions amount, and you get requisition difference.

8. Orks have excessive firepower, expecially for cost. They also have terrible accuracy. This means while they're average result is to do damage roughly in line with steel legion equivalents, they can and often will do more or less. Sometimes this can cause a full strength tank unit to just disappear. Just reload the Ork turn if it bugged you that much or BS happened that you don't agree with. The game aito-saves so that you can do that.

9. Yes, ork hordes of millions should outnumber a regiment of a few thousand+support.

10. 14 turns. Also you're making the mission out to be much harder than it is. If you think you took way too many losses estart and savescum if rng doesn't do what you need it to.

That said that mission is very possible on normal without too many losses. Yes losing a few units is likely on even normal, but it is supposed to be hard. Its probably one of my favorite missions I've ever played in rts.

11. Stormtroopers that got renamed into whatever? GW needs to approve every single unit. They just didn't get approval in time. That said there is a mod with them already if you want.

I've got time, tell me the rest.

[Silver]

Even though I don't agree with most of Rena's points, I have to say that this first reply is so incredibly condescending and inaccurate in so many ways that you should probably stop responding unless you're actually trying to troll and push users away from trying this game.

On point 1 - there is NO reason that basic infantry should be able to hurt medium armour. And Leman Russ tanks should never, ever be considered 'medium' armour. They're heavy. They shouldn't have the same resilience (modeled here by HP per unit), but actual armour should be the same and that armour should never, ever, EVER be penetrated by basic troopers unless they have some form of heavy weapons in the squad. There are far too many weapon stats that are utterly irrational - storm and heavy bolters with no pen, bolters with pen, shooters with pen, the list goes on. If you don't want armour to be invulnerable, then more anti-tank units should be deployed rather than just making every infantry unit an anti-tank capable unit. It's completely irrational in every way imaginable.

On point 2 - I think she understands that core slots are restricted, however what you put in them is not and that is the point. If we're playing a Steel Legion Commander, why is the choice of Titans and Space Marines a 100% no-brainer with no downsides and with no limitations? Steel Legion units outnumbered the Space Marines during the second war for Armageddon (which this game is based upon) by many thousands to one. Yet here we have taking Steel Legion units as a way to do nothing but weaken your force - the cost difference between Marine and Guard units is too small for Marines to be unlimited in choice and Titans should not be the core of a Steel Legion Commander's available forces, they simply shouldn't. Unfortunately, Steel Legion units, with the exception of some Super Heavy tank variants, are so woefully underpowered against other available units that there's no reason to take them, not even for 'saving requisition'. Something does need to be done there, such as the Guard becoming better *and* the Marines and Titans becoming far more expensive.

Point 6 - experience being easy to build up? Unless you played only on easy you should have realised, as have most of the people on the Slitherine boards, that there are issues with reinforcing that cause experience to deteriorate to a much higher degree than they really should. In many cases, earned experience in a scenario is severely depleted through reinforcements and casualties are often inevitable to some degree. When even one or two losses cause a plummeting experience score, it's easy to see why people would feel that it's a losing battle to keep units experienced.

Point 9 - Orks did outnumber the defending Guard forces in many battles of the Second Armageddon War, but if you want to sound condescending and superior, you should at least not make such egregious mistakes as this one, Millions of Orks fought Millions of Imperial Guardsmen. The Guard never fight in such paltry quantities as "a few thousand".


I've got time, I'll be here to correct you should you feel you need help in future.

[Romu]

Well, first of all i really hate it when people start to use we when they only represent themself. Secondly this game got some very good reviews, and is a game comparing to panzer corps or pokemon is unfair, as it is a game in its own right. If it would have been just a reskin of panzer corps i would not even have bothered buying it. Thirdly i have played this game for more than 80 hours, while i have played panzer corps 4 hours and uninstalled it, it is a good game though, just did not got hooked at all, while the first time i launched w40k armageddon i played 14 hours straight. (hopefully i was on holyday). Thirdly i am so glad steam do not allow refund, that teaches people to get informations about a game before buying it. As for the points you are trying to make, it shows that you have not have played enough, you just want a refund, well ok just say it, no need to invent problems.

I especially smiled at the ''infantry is useless''. Well after playing the campaign quite a lot i decided to play with infantry only from act 2, had no problem whatsoever to finish the game on normal, and i am trying on challenging right now.
''3. You can have infinite numbers of units that should be highly restricted (Titans, Marines, etc.)''
Well titans yes, and we talked about it on this forum, i stopped using titans, but as for marines... you know they are a base units in the space marines codex??? Some chapters like the dark angels even have the terminators as troop choices, and this came just came out, so rational tweaking and balancing is on the way.

''1. Shootas and Lasguns hurt tanks? You're kidding right?'': No they don't, but you know it is a wargame, this is just an abstract representation of what is happening on a battlefield, sometimes your infantry can simply get on the tank open the hatch and blow it, or throw a grenade in the cannon or well anything. Tanks are not invincible.

''4. There appears to be no real form of suppression, no matter how bad the moral is, a unit still fights back with just about has much as it had with full moral it seems.'' Well no, itdefinatly influence the game, try attacking while one of your unit is on red and wou'll see the resultat by yourself, but you did not really care to find proof of that i guess.

''5. Experience does what now?'' : Read the forum, it has been discussed already.

''9. You are limited to very very small number of units compared to the enemy.''

Well that would make a lot of sense wouldn't it? I mean the only thing able to outnumber orks in the wh40k universe are tyrannids, that is the interesting part with fighting against the orks, you know they will be much more numbrous, shout whaaaaag and run straight at you. Their number and physical strenght is only equal to their stupidity, and that make them one of the funniest ennemy to play against (or a very fun army to play with)

''10. You want me to hold out for how long at the end of act 1? 15 turns? And I'm just going to replace all of these units I've worked so hard to keep alive? Why did I work so hard to keep them alive if they are just being replaced and their experience they earned is now pointless?''
Well you get access to space marines from act 2, you are going to get rid of half your army anyway. And war is about making tough decision, all your units are not supposed to survive.

And last but not least: ''This is just the tip of the iceberg.'' Well i hope so, since 99% of what you are saying does not represent the beginning of a constructed criticism.
You have 3 options here:
1)Learn how this game works (most of the critics you are formulating about the mechanics are not justified. Moral have an influene, and cover works, you just need to read about cover to understand how it works ...) then realise that it is a very solid wargame, and play for many hours.
2)Wait for patches, this game already got two patches, each of them were meaningfull patches that really added something to the game, be it in term of mechanics, balancing units, bug fixing, and adding extra things.
3)Whine. Is whining giving you any satisfaction? Because if yes, i understand you gotta enjoy the little things. If not well then take a deep breath and give this game another try ;)


And please, stop using we when you represent only one person, this is a trand i see way to often on the internet and it really does not make any sense, and does not give you any more credit.

[Xavi-Da-Imp]

Come to think about it - my army configuration has only a couple of Steel Legion units and Titans and the rest are the Space Marines.

It would be cool, if there was some limit on how many Space Marines unit we can take (in Campaign ofc), becouse it is realy weird that everyone are still calling my units "Steel Legion". And by the way - SL should have some strong infantry unit, like Stormtroopers, or be far more cheaper then Space Marines (or Space Marines should be more expensive).

[Logliu]

Your composition is basically what is intended. Space marines pretty much take the place of elite reinforcements, as they are more expensive but more effectove than comparable guard units in most cases.

In general Steel Legion are cheaper and if you kept your units alive have enough exp to match the space marine effectiveness. Your army is called steel Legion because that is who you are. And again, Stormtroopers have not yet been approved by GW yet (far as we know) and there is a mod for it.

Please read your own critics if you are going to spew out your own criticism. I have a feeling you thought tl:dr and skipped.

[Xavi-Da-Imp]

Chill out, bro :P

I just said that by the plot point of view it is weird that even with full Space Marine army we still are called "Steel Legion" and it is kinda silly (when also that Dante fellla said something like "Dont you think you can order Astratas around"...or something). And I know that GW didnt aproved Stormtroopers yet. I just say that it would be cool to have some.

[Logliu]

At what point am I angry? +P

You, the player, are an officer of the Steel Legion, of course you're called Steel Legion.

Also its been said, several times; and slitherine have commented on it several times in other threads. Reading is good for you bro.

[boatie]

This argument is nuts. The developers offer one perspective of what game "balance" should look like. Its very obvious we need other perspectives. I think the important point is: is the developer's perspective of balance coherent? That's what they should aim at and, limited as their perspective is, it seems to be getting there. But to imagine that their perspective will make everyone happy is fantasy. We need modders to offer a different vision of the game.

[Logliu]

Out of curiosity which part is "nuts"? I admit I am defending the game, but mainly because the OP seems to have made little effort to try to understand the design choices of the devs.

From what I personally think there are still quite a few units just not useful because they cost too much or do too little or just not available early enough (macharius tanks come to mind). That said I agree that they have been getting better, and from what I've seen listening (like terminators being too slow and getting land raider transports for example).

I personally don't think that the game is perfect, nor should everyone be happy with it, but at leaast trying to understand the game design choices are why something is a certain way instead of blindly complaining shouldn't be too hard. The OP has repeated complained about a lack of stormtroopers, despite there being legal reasons they aren't in the game and a mod since the first week of December with them. That is the kind of stuff that tends to annoy me.

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

I'm not complaining it's too hard, I'm pointing out design faults in the game that should have been addressed before I purchased it.
You argue for infantry getting on tanks with grenades, and i"ll point out it actually lists individual unit weapons including grenades and stick bombs (Check the Ork Kommandos) and basically because of cost makes imperial guard infantry unless when you are suppose to be playing an Imperial Guard Steel Legion Battalion which is comprised, big shocker, of mostly Imperial Guard Infantry.
Furthermore, you give basic shootas and bolters Armor piercing but then weapons that are basically bigger versions of these (Stormbolters, Heavy Bolters, etc) which are known to have armor piercing, lack it to the point they can't hurt tanks while the standard shoota and bolter do.
Ultramarines are basically cheap marines compared to the Blood Angels (Better Accuracy more attacks) or Salamanders (Better armor, lots of flamers/cover ignore weapons). But for lore purposes the Ultramarines are suppose to be the standard by which all other marine units measure up.
There is no reason to take Iron Clad Dreadnaughts despite that these are suppose to be up-armored dreads but have the exact same stats as regular dreadnaughts.

At the end of the day, experience is an issue constantly because as Doomkitten put it, if you even incur 1 point of damage during a battle, at the end when it auto reinforces your troops they lose hundreds of points of XP to replace 1 guy and there is no "Reinforce with experienced troops but pay extra" button to compensate for this.

Where are my imperial guard with carapace armor as well? Command Squads in Lore and Every other Warhammer Game ever made!, come with Carapace as their standard armor yet here the command squad only gets a power sword. If the orks get choppas on most of their units I want my tactical marines to have frag grenades and marine knives and my guardsmen to have melee weapons (Bayonets and Swords are quite common, even chainswords).

I could keep going but just remember The expectation here was extremely high and they have so far fallen flat on their faces.

[Slitherine_Iain]

A lot of people struggling with the game are expecting it to play like PzC but it doesn't. The game mechanics are very different and you have to learn a completely new way to play. While some of the unit balance may not be right yet, I absolutely disagree with some of the statements made about design. The aim never was to create an accurate replication of the tabletop system, just to capture the feel, so the kind of units have the same kind of roles as in the lore.

Saying light units should never hurt a medium tank is my opinion a disastrous game design approach. Having units that can't hurt each other at all is terrible for game design and balance. You can't argue it from a lore or realism point of view. From a realism point of view look at the real world - even a light infantry unit without anti tank weapons can take out a tank if its not careful with light grenades not designed to hurt a tank or home made explosives like molotov cocktails.

The aim is to reward good tactics but not make them the only way to complete the game. If we went down this approach the only way to play would be the way we told you. Our approach was to allow everything to hurt everything but make it much more efficient to use the correct units. This is a much more fun and interesting way to play. It gives the player more options and lets the learn gradually. This is what good game design is all about.

Lets keep the discussions civil please. This is getting very heated and if it gets out of hand it will have to be locked.

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

Then Mr. Developer:
Take it off of my steam account and return my money because that is not what was advertised and that is not what I paid for. I paid for an epic scale warhammer game to play on my computer that played like warhammer. Not something envisioned to be completely different and seemingly missing dozens of features that I would call innovations in your other games that this one sorely lacks.

This game experience has moved your game company from something I could call I want it because these guys do good work to: I'm not going to buy it without playing at least a 2 hour demo first or playing it on a friends computer to see if it is worth my time.

[yjzep]

Typically when I purchase a much lauded game and don't like it, I chalk it up to "that's life". This game is very popular, and some of us like it very much. "change it to how I want it, or refund my money!" is not really a valid option now is it? I bought Rockstar games at launch like a sheep until GTA IV when my friends all had 50 hours in a week and I played for 3, I realized I HATE rockstar games. They sell very well and are very popular, so I really have no qualms. Just not for me. I think light infantry not hurting tanks at all is ridiculous. Game wise I wouldn't like it.

Originally posted by RenaofArcadiatheFox:

Then Mr. Developer:
Take it off of my steam account and return my money because that is not what was advertised and that is not what I paid for. I paid for an epic scale warhammer game to play on my computer that played like warhammer. Not something envisioned to be completely different and seemingly missing dozens of features that I would call innovations in your other games that this one sorely lacks.

This game experience has moved your game company from something I could call I want it because these guys do good work to: I'm not going to buy it without playing at least a 2 hour demo first or playing it on a friends computer to see if it is worth my time.

[FiauraTheTankGirl]

No it is a valid opinion because I bought the game based on what was advertised as a computer experience of Warhammer 40K: Epic. What I got was not something I enjoy, not what was advertised, nor something I wanted. Now I am being told that it will never be something I want. So in short, my satisfaction is so low, I want my money returned to me and the product removed from my possession.

[Logliu]

Contact steam support, not the dev. The dev has no contrl over your steam library.