Hidden unit abilities?

[tiavals]

It seems some units have abilities that aren't visible in the info screen for the unit. For instance, a dozer blade leman russ can move through bad terrain better than a non-dozer blade one, I think? (unless I'm misunderstanding something else)

Also, some units(tanks mainly) have almost identical stats, except the other is better, yet they are the same price.(same weapons, armor, initiative, etc, except the main weapon was objectively worse for the other(less range-damage-shots-AP-accuracy).

Don't remember the particular unit, but it was either a leman russ variant or one of the supertanks. Is it an oversight and the other unit should be cheaper, or does one have hidden abilities the other doesn't?

[Slitherine_Iain]

Without seeing the exact example its hard to say if you missed something or its a bug. It is possible we have some bad values that need a bit of tweaking so if you see it let us know.

[tiavals]

Whew, finally made a quick comparison of the most obvious problems. Sorry for the messy parts, hopefully it's easy enough to read:

I'll just compare units within a faction and a category to simplify things. So no comparing of infantry to tanks for the most part(some exceptions).


Steel legion infantry:

Hive militia with autopistols are worse than hive militia with autoguns. The only difference is that autoguns are simply better(range 2 instead of 1, damage 25 instead of 20, 2 attacks instead of 1). Hence, autopistols serve no purpose

On the other hand, hive militia with autoguns are worse than steel legion conscripts. Steel legion conscripts cost only 75(autoguns are 90). Conscripts have 10 more figures per unit(30 instead of 20), have initiative 5 instead of 3, have accuracy of 35 instead of 30. Okay, autoguns are 25 damagea instead of 20.

This means 40 attacks at accuracy 30 and damage 25, as opposed to 60 attacks of accuracy 35 at 20 damage. Without doing the math, I'm guessing that at 95% of possible scenarios the conscripts are better.(and since they're cheaper too...)

Steel legion infantry cost 100(hive militia with autoguns 90). Infantry have move of 3(militia 2). Sight of 2(militia 1). Armor 35(militia 25). Initiative 9(militia 3). Accuracy 50(militia 30). Infantry damage 20(militia 25).

So the situation is similar to the conscript one. Infantry do cost a bit more(10 points or roughly 10%). But they move more, see farther, can take more damage, have higher initiative and accuracy. I'm betting they're better in at least 80% of situations, if not 95%.

In short, there's no reason to ever use hive militia of either variety as it is. Please make them viable in some way.(more figures per model, far cheaper, or something)



Steel legion vehicles:


Salamander scout(200 points) compared to Hydra(350 points). Scout has 2hit points, hydra has 3. Scout has 5 move, hydra 4. Scout has 4 vision, hydra 2. Scout has 7 initiative, hydra 9. Scout autogun does 40 damage with 10% armor piercing and 3 shots. Hydra does 30, with 0% and 2 shots(but has AA bonus)

So, for far less points you get a unit that can move faster, see farther and does vastly more damage. Granted, the hydra has 50% more durability, but is slower, sees closer and does far less damage(scout does roughly 50% more). Scout does have less initiative than hydra. The hydra AA bonus is meaningless as it is.

In 90% of situations, I'd choose the scout over the hydra. Increasing the armor of the hydra might help, or making it's attack as good as the scout.

Hellhound vs Banewolf.
300 vs 350 points. initiative 6 vs 7. damage 50 vs 20. shots 3 vs 4. So, for 50 points more, you get 1 initiative, 33% more shots but at only 40% damage! A very bad deal in almost all cases. Only when shooting at gretchskins does the banewolf have a point. so 90% of situation hellhound is better. If you gave the banewolf 1 more shot it might be viable.

Or increase it's damage to 30 or 35 perhaps


Steel legion tanks:


Leman russ vs armor upgraded leman russ.
30 points more(some 6% or so) and you go from armor 60 to 75 and initiative 5 to 7. Why would you ever take a normal leman russ?

Leman russ vs dozer blade leman russ.
25 points more, you go from 60 to 65 armor, 5 to 7 initiative, and get heavy bolters(40 damage, 3 shots). The difference in utility is insane. No reason to EVER use normal leman russ(if given a choice)

Comparing the dozer blade leman russ to the armor upgrade one: for 5 points more, you get 10 mor armor but lose heavy bolters. Seems a no brainer, 95% of the time I'd take the dozer blade version.

The upgraded leman russ at 550 points(dozer blade 475) has 2 more initiative, 5 more ranged accuracy. 75 points for such a small difference isn't very good.

Oh, and I just realized the symbol for Tracks and Small Tracks as a movement mode is identical. It's the reason why dozerblade version is better at terrain. Should make the icon easier to notice without using a tooltip, since it's a huge difference.

Leman russ(upgraded) vs leman russ(conqueror).
Same price. initiative 9 to 5. accuracy 70 to 65. battle cannon is 70 damage, 0% AP. Conqueror is 60 damage, 10% AP. If I understood correctly, this means that against units with over 100 armor(only titans?), the conqueror is the superior choice(extremely rare situation). Naturally, if my understanding of the armor piercing system is wrong, the analysis of units I do is pretty wrong too.

Anyway, upgraded has a heavy bolter while conqueror has storm bolter. Damage 40 to 30. Range 3 to 2. Shots 3 to 2. So, upgraded is much better in this regard too.

Of course, since upgraded is worse than Dozer blade, that makes conqueror even worse.

Solution: Make the conqueror cannon far more powerful. Damage 90 perhaps?

Leman russ vanquisher vs Destroyer.
750 to 450 cost. 4 to 5 move. 11 to 8 initiative. 70 to 80 accuracy. vanquisher cannon is 75 damage(laser destroyer 90), 45% AP(to 50%), -10 accuracy per range.

The vanquisher has a heavy bolter and a storm bolter, the destroyer has nothing else.

If you want an anti-tank unit, the destroyer is clearly better(far cheaper, better main gun, faster to move, far more accurate at range 4). For a versatile unit that can handle more than just tanks, the Vanquisher is too expensive. Dropping the vanquisher price to 600 points might work.(though that'd clash with the other versions?)

The destroyer is far worse than its upgraded version. It costs a tiny bit less, but has less durability and accuracy and other useful things. Make the upgraded 550 points?

Macharius.
Macharius costs 30 points less than Macharius Vanquisher, but has 7 instead of 9 initiative, and more importantly, it's main gun is just 90(0%) vs 95(50%)! A huge difference for a unit of 810 instead of 840 cost. Make the normal macharius 730 points or something.

There's no upgraded Banehammer, but all the other super tanks have upgraded versions. Is this supposed to be the case?

The upgraded super tanks are as a rule too cheap. for 40 or 50 points, you get a bit more armor but a lot more initiative. Initiative is critical to them, and when the point cost is around 800, 50 points is a bit cheap for such a large initiative. Increase cost of all upgraded versions by 30 points?

Maybe even 50 points.

The Stormsword tank is awful, terribly terribly awful. Then only thing it can do is withstand damage. It only has an attack of 80(60%AP) with range 2. And with only 2 figures per unit, that's a total of 2 attacks. I can't possibly imagine a situation where I would EVER use it. The upgraded version is far better and serves an actual purpose. Sure, the normal version has move 4(all other supertanks are slower), but since it can't do anything, it doesn't matter.

Add 50 points to the price, and add both the flamers and heavy bolters of the upgraded version to it, and it becomes viable.

The banehammer is pretty weak compared to the stormlord. Stormlord has 8 attacks with damage 50(0%AP), banehammer has 2 attacks with 50(30%AP). Although the banehammer does have 1 more heavy bolter attack. Taking that to account, it's roughly 8 attacks vs 3 attacks. The 30% doesn't make that much of a difference when the attack difference is so high. Increasing the banehammer damage to 70 on the main weapon might work.

Well, at least if you didn't take into account the Stormblade. It is almost identical to the banehammer(has 1 less heavy bolter attack), but it's main gun is 1 less range(a big deal usually) 120 damage and 40%AP. The damage difference is too large(stormblade is cheaper too). Maybe increasing the banehammer to damage 80 is best. Or even 90

Then again, the Banesword has the Quake cannon(3-7 range), 90 damage, 25% AP, 3 attacks, and can shoot over buildings and mountains. In practice, the banesword is far more useful in 85% of situations(it can't retaliate with the cannon, which is a big problem). But with a main gun that powerful and shooting so many times, that's hardly a problem.

I guess making the banehammer's main weapon 90 damage, with 3 shots is best.



Artillery:


The Medusa siege gun is terrible since it lacks the critical Indirect Fire rule. Give it that and it's fixed


Aircraft:


Vendetta gunship vs vulture - 585 to 645, 35 to 45 armor. The main problem are the weapons. 90(30%, 3 attacks) and 40(0% 3 attacks), vs 65(20% 2 attacks, accuracy 80% only) and 90(35%, 1 attack). Practically the vendettas main gun covers all the weapons of the vulture, but it also has the secondary attack, and it's cheaper. Make the vulture cost 645 and it's okay maybe.

The valkyrie gunship is just garbage. Make it cost 330 points and it MIGHT be usable


Titans:


The reaver battle titan is too good in every way compared to pretty much anything in the game. Increase the price to 2600 points



I'll go through the marines more quickly since I'm getting tired:


Marine Infantry:


The assault squads of all marines have 3 hit points, making them far too powerful for their cost. They should have 2 HP, the 3 is clearly a mistake.(since the advanced version(vanguard veterans) only have 2hp but are far more expensive and roughly identical otherwise)

Terminator assault squads are utter rubbish in practive, since they get shot to pieces before they can do anything. The normal terminators at least shoot storm bolters before the melee phase. So, while the assault termies are good on paper, the fact that the assault phase is after shooting makes them pretty useless in most situations.

Giving them 1 more attack might fix them, since they'd do good damage once they hit, which'd make them a specialist unit that has a purpose.

The meltagun centurion infantry units are pretty bad compared to the flamer ones. increase melta gun damage to 80 or something


The thunderfire cannon unit is far too expensive since it can't shoot and move on the same turn. Lower the cost by 200 points or so.

I'd say the assault cannon and thunderfire launcher terminators are somewhat too cheap. Increase their cost by 40 points?


Marine Vehicles:


I don't understand the purpose of the Scout Bikes. They are identical to the normal bikes. Why do they exist?

The normal land speeder is too expensive. It really only has the heavy bolter, which alone doesn't justify the high cost. The other land speeders are fine. Lower the price of the normal one

The ultramarines Land Speeder STorm is exactly identical to the regular Land Speeder, but more expensive. I don't understand.


Marine Walkers:


Blood angels ironclad dreadnought is inferior to furioso dreadnought in every way(and fluff wise they shouldn't have ironclads). Remove the unit from the blood angels.

That way only the other marines that don't get a furioso have it, so it sort of has a point.

Venerable dreadnoughts are identical to normal dreadnoughts, but cost 50 points more. Might want to give the venerable 10 or 15 more armor or such to justify the cost.


Marine tanks:

The razorbacks seem pretty useless compared to the predators. Somewhat cheaper, yes, but with less weaponry. I'd lower their price a bit, perhaps. Or increase the predator

Quick note, it's strange that the non-blood angel marine tanks have less accuracy than the Steel Legion tanks, from a setting perspective.

Also quick note, comparing the land raider Achilles to the infantry unit Thunderfire cannon is laughable and demonstrates the over pricedness of the thunderfire cannon infantry at one glance.

The regular land raider isn't cheap enough compared to the Achilles version, I'd say. Shave 50 points off the price?

Land raider hyperios with Helios launcher is pointless given how the Anti-air rules work.

Land raider prometheus vs achilles: main guns - 3 range, 40 damage, 0% ap, 5 attacks vs 4 range 50 damage 30% ap, 5 attack. secondary guns - 2range 35 damage 0ap 2 shots. vs 2 range 60 damage 30ap 3 shots(-20 range per hex). With only 50 points price difference, it's clear that the Achilles is far superior

Make the prometheus cheaper by 75 points or something



These changes ought fix most of the problems.

[boatie]

I would add that experience should count for alot more in this game. Its a joke that combat units barely have any experience due to attrition and its only titans and arty that have all the experience. After Act 2, most of your surviving units should have 5 or more skulls. The exp penalty for refit should be half. Also, no need to increase prices for titan, just limit how many you can buy. For example, limit total numbers to 4 reavers and 6-8 scouts.

[SpiralRazor]

I agree with many of the points the above poster made, and i applaud his length.

I can answer one question very simply though, and that is the question of why take something for less points. In the campaign, there is no reason not to use the best equipment you can afford and have access too.

In an actual Player vs Player scenario, its simply points, just like the table top game.. Ive known players who have done very well by flooding the board with mostly cheap garbage units to slog the enemy while a few powerful units do pinpoint precision clean up. Same applies here...thats why sometimes Imperial Guard armored brigades flood with cheap NON-upgraded Leman Russ tanks....because they can still take objectives and you still have to deal with them in some way.

Its also why you see Space Marine armies that spam the lascannon razorback.



Btw, its super ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up that the Ultramarines are worse in nearly every way to the Blood Angels....and that both BA and UM are less accurate over all then the IG.....This needs to be fixed PRONTO........ Blood Angles doctrine is more melee oriented, while the UM tends to focus on mid to long range shooting...other then that, there should be NO difference in accuracy between the two chapters.

Devs are fail hardcore on this and obviously dont play the game.

[boatie]

SpiralRazor, not possible currently to spam cheap units with slot limit. They could take that away too and it won't be a bad thing. The requisition points could act as limiter.

[SpiralRazor]

Req points should always be the only limiter in PVP. In the campaign it makes a vague sense.

Also for PVP there should be tick boxes so people can limit off Unit Classes...dont want to play with titans? Check the box before you start the game and no one has access titans.

[Kerensky]

Some of the issues noted are already resolved in upcoming 1.02, some of it requires some pretty extensive and far reaching code changes (AA issues mostly), and some of it is pretty well put. Thanks for such a detailed posting! Maybe we can see some of these concerns get addressed in a patch!