A step back from Ryza in every way. Reconsider going foward, devs

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Ryza 1 was an attempt to make atelier more like a traditional jrpg. Its combat was ok
2 struck a fantastic balance between classic character focused atelier and ryzas new jrpg inclinations. Widened the world and combat got really good
3 was too big for its own good and I remember noting they better scale back and be more like 2. But the combat was EXCELENT and one of the best in any jrpg ever

Yumia takes the worse of the Ryza games and switches the amazing Ryza 3 combat for crap that feels like discount Tales
It focuses too much on Save The World with the Power of Friendship. It feels looks and plays like a generic open world jrpg. The characters even look generic

Scale back the world map, the scale of the story, go back to Ryza 3 combat.
The size of the map of Ryza 2 and Sophie 2 was fine. Atelier is at its best when focused on its cast and their slice of life moments. Ryza added a more standard jrpg story ok top well without it overtaking the series's charm. Yumia lost the balance and became not Atelier. Generic as hell and again GO BACK TO RYZA 3 COMBAT

[FreshMint]

I mean if anything I'd still say this is an improvement over Ryza 3 in terms of open world design.

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

If people were more open minded, we would have better games. Just because something is not the same as it used to be, does not mean it is worse. I seem to hear that a lot, even with Final Fantasy games, there is room for both the old and the new to coexist. In Yumia case, I don't understand what people beef with it, but aesthetically speaking it looks better than the older games. I'm no Atelier fanboy by any means, but I do have Ryza, and to me personally Yumia looks even better.

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Ryza 3s combat was one if the best ever in a jrpg, its such a waste to change it. And while the game is pretty, it feels less atelier

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

it feels less atelier

That's not inherently a bad thing, speaking as someone from the outside looking in. Isn't Yumia the bestselling Atelier at launch? It definitely had the most player count, almost doubling Ryza 3.

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

it feels less atelier

That's not inherently a bad thing, speaking as someone from the outside looking in. Isn't Yumia the bestselling Atelier at launch? It definitely had the most player count, almost doubling Ryza 3.

The loss of own identity to become more generic in hopes of mass appeal is how you ruin franchises

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

The loss of own identity to become more generic in hopes of mass appeal is how you ruin franchises

I disagree, franchises have to evolve in order to not become stale, Afterall, "mass appeal" and making money is the whole point of them running a business, simply satisfying a core fanbase is not sustainable. Take the God of War franchise for example, that franchise had to evolve, and that evolution was rewarding. Now take all the old Platformers from the 90s, how many are still around? What happened to Rayman, Sly Cooper, Ape Escape, etc. Clearly platformers ran its course, but these are just a small example of a bigger picture. Atelier series also ran its course and seem the series was coming to an end before Ryza "thighs" save the franchise. This means KOEI TECMO had to evolve the series for it to be profitable or retire the series, clearly they chose former.

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Evolving is fine, just not backwards. There's also no reason not to use a system for a few games. You dont need to go back to the early where every game had the same combat until Dusk, but reusing a great system while polishing it for a few installments so you can focus on other stuff is fine.

[yamface]

Ryza was great minus the combat. Not sure why devs keep doing this but they need to make a game turn based, or make it action. Stop mixing both. The whole point of turn based combat is to sit and think your options thoroughly yet the action part of it rushes everyone. Final fantasy did this starting with ff7 and it didn't make those games any better.

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Did you try ryza 2 and 3 system? Ryza 1s was kind of a mess, 2 and 3 were fantastic

[Prinny𖤐Wesker]

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

The loss of own identity to become more generic in hopes of mass appeal is how you ruin franchises

I disagree, franchises have to evolve in order to not become stale, Afterall, "mass appeal" and making money is the whole point of them running a business, simply satisfying a core fanbase is not sustainable. Take the God of War franchise for example, that franchise had to evolve, and that evolution was rewarding. Now take all the old Platformers from the 90s, how many are still around? What happened to Rayman, Sly Cooper, Ape Escape, etc. Clearly platformers ran its course, but these are just a small example of a bigger picture. Atelier series also ran its course and seem the series was coming to an end before Ryza "thighs" save the franchise. This means KOEI TECMO had to evolve the series for it to be profitable or retire the series, clearly they chose former.

They've taken wild swings before while keeping the core experience intact. Firis was basically a prototype for what we have now.

In my opinion, the loss of identity isn't from changing the gameplay for mass appeal. Its from lessening the frequency and importance of quiet moments between party members and npcs

The character events in this game are sparse and, with the way most players are going to put off the main story to explore, are also going to be spaced quite a ways apart. And said events just flat out don't exist for npcs who are relegated to being exclamation points to check off the map rather than characters you want to check in with.

You can change up the gameplay and the scope of the story while keeping the 'slice of life' moments the series is known for. They've done it before and it certainly isn't something they need to drop for mass appeal.

[FreshMint]

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

Ryza 3s combat was one if the best ever in a jrpg, its such a waste to change it. And while the game is pretty, it feels less atelier

Ryza (or at least 3) and Yumia both suffer horrendoisly from having absolutely zero feedback on what you are pressing.

Yes, they have various effects and if nothing else your preference in animation can still play but I rarely feel encouraged to study all playstyles and the only ones I do still remember in Yumia are Yumia's (in meter only), Rutger's and Lenja's.
Let alone the humongous amount of characters in Ryza 3.

And in both items eventually just kinda make things explode pretty hard, even if it's just a little bit harder in Ryza 3 (And, admittedly, maybe it's outscaling skills more in Yumia).

I'd still say Yumia is an improvement though, but only because dodging is a Thing You Can Do, and the AoE markers together with the in/out stuff is an addition either way.
But in the end games like these just end up button mashing games no matter how much you get into it.

Conpare a MMO like Final Fantasy XIV; for a large number of classes your standard combo is split between three buttons, sometimes splitting to other buttons instead.
You get a lot of high-length cpoldowns, buttons that enable others, buttons that require a meter to fill etc.
In the end thay game is still a 'solved'game in that you still follow the same pattern for optimal damage, but you still feel a little bit more feedback because you need to pay a bit more attention.

Sophie 2 is modern Atelier's peak as far as combat goes.

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Sophie 2 is also neat. I didnt have that.much of a feedback problem.on ryza 3

[DBZ_KAKAROT]

Originally posted by Prinny𖤐Wesker:

They've taken wild swings before while keeping the core experience intact. Firis was basically a prototype for what we have now.

In my opinion, the loss of identity isn't from changing the gameplay for mass appeal. Its from lessening the frequency and importance of quiet moments between party members and npcs

The character events in this game are sparse and, with the way most players are going to put off the main story to explore, are also going to be spaced quite a ways apart. And said events just flat out don't exist for npcs who are relegated to being exclamation points to check off the map rather than characters you want to check in with.

You can change up the gameplay and the scope of the story while keeping the 'slice of life' moments the series is known for. They've done it before and it certainly isn't something they need to drop for mass appeal.

I don't disagree with what you said, again I'm just spectator that recently sparked an interest in this series, particularly it started with Ryza, and now with Yumia, so you could say I'm part of the new demographic that KT is attempting to attract. So opinions aside, I'm trying to do my research, and couldn't find any sales numbers for each individual game of the series.

Also, I'm not saying the games have to lose their identity completely in order to evolve, so I'm not sure what elements have been lost between each of the games. I understand the change of a battle system from something like turn-based to action-oriented may irk some purists, but that's not enough to change the identity of a franchise.

So, to reiterate my previous point, I want to point out my previous comment about sales, KOEI TECMO must be doing something right if the new games are reaching a "mass appeal", and if that means changing some the old core elements, then that's what they're going to have to do.

You pointed out Firis as a prototype, I don't know how many copies that game have sold, but if you look at the all-time peak here on Steam, the game barely hit over a hundred. I'm no mathematician, but even I can tell that's abysmal, and that number is just not sustainable for a business, I can see now why this franchise was on its deathbed.

So, you got to look at this at all angles, and KOEI TECMO must be looking at these numbers, and realize they must be doing something right or they're on the right track, even at the cost of changing some elements that incorporate their core identity, it's all part of their strategy of reviving a dying franchise.

[Izunyami]

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

Originally posted by DBZ_KAKAROT:

That's not inherently a bad thing, speaking as someone from the outside looking in. Isn't Yumia the bestselling Atelier at launch? It definitely had the most player count, almost doubling Ryza 3.

The loss of own identity to become more generic in hopes of mass appeal is how you ruin franchises

"Loss of identity"
"Be more like Ryza"
Ryza was already the black sheep of identity in the franchise. Go away tourist.

[ffrasisti [ARG]]

Originally posted by Izunyami:

Originally posted by ffrasisti ARG:

The loss of own identity to become more generic in hopes of mass appeal is how you ruin franchises

"Loss of identity"
"Be more like Ryza"
Ryza was already the black sheep of identity in the franchise. Go away tourist.

I alse said that if it was up to me we would go back to Arland but its not possible. sophie 2 and ryza 2 has fantastic combat systems