if death is permanant, why is healing so difficult?

[JolyJew СлаваУкраине]

buying half a heart in a shop costs 23 money. the avarage money you earn in an entire level is about 50, sometimes less.

so after getting hit twice - no more heals until the next level. and with the bullet hells the bosses throw at me, it's very easy to get hit 4 more times and bam, back to the start of the game.
why? how is this fair? how is this fun? do people really enjoy replaying the same starting levels 20 times until you learn the game well enough to survive?

[h1m4rs]

You do get random hearts every few rooms, and there's the mechanic of "Master rounds", which gives you additional hp for completing bosses hitless.

Overall - yeah, the point of the game is to get good/lucky enough to be able to beat it, and you die a bunch of times before that happens.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

buying half a heart in a shop costs 23 money. the avarage money you earn in an entire level is about 50, sometimes less.

Incorrect. In the *first* level, you earn around 55 shells with good play. In the second level, you can easily earn 80 shells or so. The further along you go, the more you earn.

That's not including random money spawns that you get as a reward for skilled play, nor does it count the reward the Hunter's Dog sometimes finds, or some items that can grant you several hundred shells on pick-up.

Also, there's a chance a Health pick-up will spawn upon completing a room; there are also the "Doctor" NPCs that will spawn randomly. Destroying treasure chests also has a chance of granting a health item, and if you have a certain Ring equipped, that chance becomes 100%/

[JustSmile]

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

buying half a heart in a shop costs 23 money. the avarage money you earn in an entire level is about 50, sometimes less.

so after getting hit twice - no more heals until the next level. and with the bullet hells the bosses throw at me, it's very easy to get hit 4 more times and bam, back to the start of the game.
why? how is this fair? how is this fun? do people really enjoy replaying the same starting levels 20 times until you learn the game well enough to survive?

You appear to be new to roguelite genre. Yes, people do find fun in mastering their skill at this game. Healing is difficult because you're not supposed to be tanking hits.

[Ardes // Sérène]

That's because the game is a roguelite and that is the main mechanic of this genre.

The point is to learn and improve, so you don't get hurt too often.

I could flame you for such post but I'd rather say this : keep going and you'll improve to the point of seeing yourself clearings floors with no Hits are most runs. Just keep learning.

[JolyJew СлаваУкраине]

Originally posted by Ardes // Sérène:

That's because the game is a roguelite and that is the main mechanic of this genre.

The point is to learn and improve, so you don't get hurt too often.

I could flame you for such post but I'd rather say this : keep going and you'll improve to the point of seeing yourself clearings floors with no Hits are most runs. Just keep learning.

the main mechanic of rouge-likes, (why do you call it roguelite?) is permanant death and randomly generated levels.

perma death that sends you back to the beginning of the game is already a punishing enough incentive to avoid getting hit and imporve in the game. heck some games are considered punishing just for restarting a level upon death.

so why make taking damage be almost as punishing? it just adds a new layer of frustration while adding nothing of value.
instead of being anxious only when you're on low health you're stressed after every hit you take, and if you took a hit before the 1st boss it's better to just restart the run - how the hell is that fun? it's like playing Doom Eternal but never getting health from kills besides bosses.

stress and frustration only makes the player less likely to improve their skills!
not to mention that when you have to spend money on healing, you have no money left for weapons and chest keys, so unless you get really lucky with health drops, so the punshiment for a bad play is to make you play even worse, totally makes sense?

Originally posted by JustSmile:

You appear to be new to roguelite genre. Yes, people do find fun in mastering their skill at this game. Healing is difficult because you're not supposed to be tanking hits.

First, i played plenty of other rouge-likes and beath them.
Second, just because some people have fun mastering the game doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to in order to enjoy it
And thirdly, one of the main character - the Convict has an ability that's intended for tanking hits, not that you'd want to anyway because some bosses can hit you 6 times incredibly fast

[JustSmile]

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

the main mechanic of rouge-likes, (why do you call it roguelite?) is permanant death and randomly generated levels.

It's a subdivison in the genre. By a stricter definition a rogueLIKE refers to turn-based ASCII dungeon crawlers with randomly created levels and permadeath. Nothing is preserved after death other than the knowledge and skill you gained. If we use a less strict definition we forget the turn-based ASCII part.
By contrast rogueLITE is somewhat less hardcore, granting players to some sort of resource (or resources) between runs. This allows metaprogression of various kinds, details depending on the game. In Gungeon you unlock additional characters, shortcuts, weapons, items, passives, bosses, stages, and NPCs.

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

perma death that sends you back to the beginning of the game is already a punishing enough incentive to avoid getting hit and imporve in the game. heck some games are considered punishing just for restarting a level upon death.

so why make taking damage be almost as punishing? it just adds a new layer of frustration while adding nothing of value.
instead of being anxious only when you're on low health you're stressed after every hit you take, and if you took a hit before the 1st boss it's better to just restart the run - how the hell is that fun? it's like playing Doom Eternal but never getting health from kills besides bosses.

Permadeath is not punishing if the game is easy. If healing is easy the game is easy. The game is supposed to be hard. That's really all there is to it. You're supposed to get good and stop taking hits, not restart every time you screw up and get bodied.

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

First, i played plenty of other rouge-likes and beath them.
Second, just because some people have fun mastering the game doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to in order to enjoy it
And thirdly, one of the main character - the Convict has an ability that's intended for tanking hits, not that you'd want to anyway because some bosses can hit you 6 times incredibly fast

If you played easier games and enjoyed them they're still open to you. Don't demand a game you found too hard is made easier because you don't want to master it instead. And just because convict has a consolation prize on screwing up does not mean you are supposed to take hits on purpose.

[Terratrox]

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

Originally posted by Ardes // Sérène:

That's because the game is a roguelite and that is the main mechanic of this genre.

The point is to learn and improve, so you don't get hurt too often.

I could flame you for such post but I'd rather say this : keep going and you'll improve to the point of seeing yourself clearings floors with no Hits are most runs. Just keep learning.

the main mechanic of rouge-likes, (why do you call it roguelite?) is permanant death and randomly generated levels.

perma death that sends you back to the beginning of the game is already a punishing enough incentive to avoid getting hit and imporve in the game. heck some games are considered punishing just for restarting a level upon death.

so why make taking damage be almost as punishing? it just adds a new layer of frustration while adding nothing of value.
instead of being anxious only when you're on low health you're stressed after every hit you take, and if you took a hit before the 1st boss it's better to just restart the run - how the hell is that fun? it's like playing Doom Eternal but never getting health from kills besides bosses.

stress and frustration only makes the player less likely to improve their skills!
not to mention that when you have to spend money on healing, you have no money left for weapons and chest keys, so unless you get really lucky with health drops, so the punshiment for a bad play is to make you play even worse, totally makes sense?

Originally posted by JustSmile:

You appear to be new to roguelite genre. Yes, people do find fun in mastering their skill at this game. Healing is difficult because you're not supposed to be tanking hits.

First, i played plenty of other rouge-likes and beath them.
Second, just because some people have fun mastering the game doesn't mean that everyone else should be forced to in order to enjoy it
And thirdly, one of the main character - the Convict has an ability that's intended for tanking hits, not that you'd want to anyway because some bosses can hit you 6 times incredibly fast

It's not punishing. With careful play, health is literally everywhere. I for example almost never leave a floor without at least 3 health that has gone UNUSED, because it drops so often. And that's not including shop health.

The ONLY time health is a problem is when you're getting hit 5, 6 times a floor. And that's entirely on you and your poor play if that's happening. Especially early on, where rooms have tons of free cover to hide behind and no traps that matter.

Also no, bosses CAN'T hit you 6 times incredibly fast. Because you have invulnerability frames after being hit. They can't just machinegun you down. It takes several seconds of continuously getting hit to die at 6 health like that. And if that's happening, it's because you're getting hit by several attacks, one after another, or a long sequence that is easy to dodge, like Bullet King's spin attack.

Also Convict is designed for speedrunning. Her abilities trade health for damage so people who want to speedrun the game can take hits and beef up her damage. That's also why her item is a molotov. It allows you to damage yourself, and the burning can keep the buff up for longer if needed. She's the worst character in the game (or tied for worst) for regular play.

[Ardes // Sérène]

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

the main mechanic of rouge-likes, (why do you call it roguelite?) is permanant death and randomly generated levels.

Rogue-like and roguelite are differents. Some people explained it to you already. I'm just tired to answer to people blablating and whinning without knowing the core of what they're actually talking. So I will answer a few things and then disengage.

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

so why make taking damage be almost as punishing? it just adds a new layer of frustration while adding nothing of value.
instead of being anxious only when you're on low health you're stressed after every hit you take, and if you took a hit before the 1st boss it's better to just restart the run - how the hell is that fun? it's like playing Doom Eternal but never getting health from kills besides bosses.

That's called the consequences of your own actions.

It's okay to messed up, just don't make a habit out of it. Point of the game is learning and improving so you get better.

The fact that you're restarting the run if you take a hit before the first boss clearly shows that you're not learning anything by just restarting things again and again at low level, hoping you'll be perfect. That's not how it works and until you figure it out, you'll be having a bad time.

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

stress and frustration only makes the player less likely to improve their skills!

That's a you problem. Learn how to cope with stress in games. Learn how to manage your frustration to turn it into something useful and productive. Learn and improve.

But you'll have to make a self-reflection about how you're playing and why you're messing. It seems like you don't really want to do that, so...

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

not to mention that when you have to spend money on healing, you have no money left for weapons and chest keys, so unless you get really lucky with health drops, so the punshiment for a bad play is to make you play even worse, totally makes sense?

That's called management. You clearly didn't figure out what choices are in the game and how to play... because you did not learn from your mistakes... See previous point.

Like someone said : "People don't fall to their level of hope and dreams, they fall to their level of mediocrity". Key of that is : if you're not actively improving what you're doing, you'll just end stucked in bad loop created by your abilities.

Originally posted by JustSmile:

You appear to be new to roguelite genre. Yes, people do find fun in mastering their skill at this game. Healing is difficult because you're not supposed to be tanking hits.

This.

Originally posted by JolyJew СлаваУкраине:

all

You can complain all you want and hope that the game will be changed to fit you view or you can try to understand why it is how it is and how others beated it with great pleasure.

And please, quit the social habit of wanting things to be mad easier because you're not good at it. Obstacles are meant to be overcomed. That's how you grow.

[Mrrshan68]

the stingy health is cause this whole genre is based around that mechanic.
in roguelike games like gungeon binding of isaac etc hp is a very limited resource, the game really asks for mastery not merely competence.
this ironically makes it harder to not get hit because of the added stress (since getting hit at all is so punishing).
i personally am also not a fan of this as a gameplay mechanic but it sadly comes with the territory for this kinda game.

master rounds however i will gripe about.
they are total and complete BS, you are telling the player hey here is some extra hp but you only get it once you prove you dont need it.
gee thanks, i hate it. -_-

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by Mrrshan68:

you are telling the player hey here is some extra hp but you only get it once you prove you dont need it.

Actually Master Rounds are the game telling the player, "Hey, great job! Here's some extra health as a reward, you may need it later when things get tougher.

But don't worry if you don't get it, because you can still get a Heart Vial, Heart Lunchbox, Heart Purse or Orange as normal items that'll boost your health just like a Master Round."

[JolyJew СлаваУкраине]

welp, i just beat the Ancient Venerable Dragun for the first time, so im pleasently surprised to say the game's unforgiving health system does help to make me play better.

funnily enough, the task of getting to floor 3 with 3 whole armor points available seems even more difficult than beating the Dragun

[JustSmile]

It probably is. You need to buy armour AND go hitless for a while.