Feedback: Health scaling makes gameplay loop sluggish/unsatisfying

[Raith]

Further to this thread here (which has probably gone full internet by now but never mind) http://steamcommunity.com/app/311690/discussions/0/364040166674197038/

I think the health scaling (and enemy health in general) is dragging down the gameplay loop and preventing some of the fun from being had with this game. Gameplay loops in games such as these are fun when they go like this > Pick up better gun > hey I can one-hit these guys now > that's pretty rad. In turn the game should be throwing more of these enemies at you at once, in addition to harder enemies, so that the difficulty keeps rising. The risk goes up with the reward and the stakes are raised as you progress through the levels.

But when health scales up with levels, picking up a new powerful gun isn't really all that fun, it's just manditory. And for a game entirely about guns, that's actually kinda lame.

//Additional//

To be more spesific, what I mean is that the health scaling serves to homoginise all the guns into essentially doing very simmilar functional damage output. This in turn homoginises gameplay because it means (for instance) that pistol dudes allways take the same ammount of time to kill, so the strategy for dealing with them doesn't really change. I just think it would be more interesting if the gameplay evolved, so that on say, level 4 you were facing them in a totally different way, like taking on 20 of them at a time but with a weapon that could deal with them in a fraction of the time.

[Milk]

Misery eredeti hozzászólása:

Tacobandit eredeti hozzászólása:

Just an FYI, everything that Raith said is pure speculation.

Absolutely wouldnt surprise me if it's true though.

That sort of screwball thing seems to happen with ports WAY too easily. I hate that, but it's just one of those things I guess... Probably irritates the devs just as much as anyone else.

Or alternatively, it runs ♥♥♥♥ on consoles because the consoles are ♥♥♥♥, or the code is unoptimized (as is the case with Nuclear Throne).
Remember, it has FPS problems even WITH this alleged "stopgap". Which is ridiculous, seeing as how the PS4 and XBONE can do 60 FPS gaming with seemingly much more taxing games.

[Julius Seizure]

Tacobandit eredeti hozzászólása:

Julius Seizure eredeti hozzászólása:

Huh. So it's just a stopgap measure to make sure consoles don't get left in the dust again.

Sometimes I hear people wonder how "PC gamer master race" became a mainstream-ish thing. I generally counter with "Became? It wasn't already?"

Just an FYI, everything that Raith said is pure speculation.

It's so stunningly similar to previous situations like this that, applying Occam's Razor, it's the most likely scenario given how well-put-together the rest of the game is. I'd like to hear what a dev has to say about this.

[Misery]

Tacobandit eredeti hozzászólása:

Misery eredeti hozzászólása:

Absolutely wouldnt surprise me if it's true though.

That sort of screwball thing seems to happen with ports WAY too easily. I hate that, but it's just one of those things I guess... Probably irritates the devs just as much as anyone else.

Or alternatively, it runs ♥♥♥♥ on consoles because the consoles are ♥♥♥♥, or the code is unoptimized (as is the case with Nuclear Throne).
Remember, it has FPS problems even WITH this alleged "stopgap". Which is ridiculous, seeing as how the PS4 and XBONE can do 60 FPS gaming with seemingly much more taxing games.

I certainly wont disagree with any of THAT either.

It's true, there's no excuse for one of those two consoles to not be able to run a game like THIS perfectly.

[Gebbennu]

I'm not exactly all too keen on scaling health. I play a lot of hunter, and after clearing the first floor, it becomes rather odd to see regular bulletkin taking crossbow bolts. I would understand them being replaced with tougher looking variants, but at the moment it doesn't seem too logical.

[Zeks]

Actually, I am not against some weapons scaling with mob health. Crossbow is a prime example of a good candidate. It definitely cant be abused 99% of the time and if it continues to oneshot bulletkin and 2-3 shot upgraded versions it will have much more use later on.

Some really bad weapons might look inetresting too, if they start scaling.

[Nogan]

Health scaling feels like a bigger deal when you're newer to the game and still have trouble getting past the first two chambers. As you become familiar with the mechanics and the different guns, everything will start to feel smoother and appropriately balanced. I know this, because I had a similar complaint when I still had trouble even reaching the Forge. Now I just kind of comfortably cruise through the first four chambers.

The game is hard because the enemies aren't an insignificant threat. You're supposed to feel challenged over the entire run. It feels clunky to you because you can't surmount that obstacle yet. You'll get the hang of it before long and then wonder why you made this topic.

[Julius Seizure]

♂ Pizza Totino's Boy ♂ eredeti hozzászólása:

Health scaling feels like a bigger deal when you're newer to the game and still have trouble getting past the first two chambers. As you become familiar with the mechanics and the different guns, everything will start to feel smoother and appropriately balanced. I know this, because I had a similar complaint when I still had trouble even reaching the Forge. Now I just kind of comfortably cruise through the first four chambers.

The game is hard because the enemies aren't an insignificant threat. You're supposed to feel challenged over the entire run. It feels clunky to you because you can't surmount that obstacle yet. You'll get the hang of it before long and then wonder why you made this topic.

I've killed every character's past and I still feel like health scaling is a cheap way to artificially increase the difficulty without actually making the game more challenging. The biggest obstacle between me and the Lich is the sheer tedium of clearing rooms with guns that don't feel like they're doing any significant damage to the weakest enemies in the game.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I understand that the game should remain challenging as you get to the deeper floors. I just don't think that health scaling was the right way to go about it.

[Misery]

♂ Pizza Totino's Boy ♂ eredeti hozzászólása:

Health scaling feels like a bigger deal when you're newer to the game and still have trouble getting past the first two chambers. As you become familiar with the mechanics and the different guns, everything will start to feel smoother and appropriately balanced. I know this, because I had a similar complaint when I still had trouble even reaching the Forge. Now I just kind of comfortably cruise through the first four chambers.

The game is hard because the enemies aren't an insignificant threat. You're supposed to feel challenged over the entire run. It feels clunky to you because you can't surmount that obstacle yet. You'll get the hang of it before long and then wonder why you made this topic.

Well, the problem is when you've got a situation with, you know, normal Bullet Kin or shotgun dudes that have been scaled.... they dont actually get any harder. They're still super duper easy particularly once you've gotten practiced at the game. Just making them take longer to kill doesnt do anything. Some people have said "Well if they stick around longer they're a threat", but... aint been my experience. If I'm not feeling hyper-impatient I *will* stand there and fire the basic gun at them because they seem a waste of ammo. There's still no challenge to it despite it taking alot longer to kill them. It's ANNOYING, sure. But harder? No.

[Zeks]

the people that defend scaling saying that they are a threat if they stay longer, need to "git gud" XD

[Bob]

Health scaling was an easier way of designing the game to be sure. I don't know if they were facing technical limitations or something, but instead of scaling up their hp, they could have had rooms be slightly bigger on average and contain more enemies on screen at once.

Killing more enemies tends to be more fun than having low tier ones tank your ammo later on in the game... it just feels off and reeks of lazy design.

Not sure why so many keep thinking this is a difficulty issue because it really isn't.. it just isn't an entertaining aspect of the game.

[srsface]

Bob eredeti hozzászólása:

Health scaling was an easier way of designing the game to be sure. I don't know if they were facing technical limitations or something, but instead of scaling up their hp, they could have had rooms be slightly bigger on average and contain more enemies on screen at once.

They already do that, PLUS the HP scales more.

it just isn't an entertaining aspect of the game.

According to you. I love how twitch the later floors get because you have to dodge roll more often because it takes longer to get through enemies. I also think it's excellent I can guage how powerful I've become by murdering enemies with more HP because I lucked out with some of the better weapons in the game.

It's very fun to have the BSG and walk into a room that normally takes awhile to clear and in fact might be quite difficult, and just blow it up. It's less exciting to have the really powerful weapons if your basic weapon would be enough to quickly kill enemies.

Zeks eredeti hozzászólása:

the people that defend scaling saying that they are a threat if they stay longer, need to "git gud" XD

You're mistaking understanding something is harder with believing something to be difficult. Enemies that take longer to kill mean they get off more shots and are more likely to get you pinned in a corner should you not have a quick, efficient means of killing them.

[Bob]

srs face eredeti hozzászólása:

Bob eredeti hozzászólása:

Health scaling was an easier way of designing the game to be sure. I don't know if they were facing technical limitations or something, but instead of scaling up their hp, they could have had rooms be slightly bigger on average and contain more enemies on screen at once.

They already do that, PLUS the HP scales more.

it just isn't an entertaining aspect of the game.

According to you. I love how twitch the later floors get because you have to dodge roll more often because it takes longer to get through enemies. I also think it's excellent I can guage how powerful I've become by murdering enemies with more HP because I lucked out with some of the better weapons in the game.

It's very fun to have the BSG and walk into a room that normally takes awhile to clear and in fact might be quite difficult, and just blow it up. It's less exciting to have the really powerful weapons if your basic weapon would be enough to quickly kill enemies.

Zeks eredeti hozzászólása:

the people that defend scaling saying that they are a threat if they stay longer, need to "git gud" XD

You're mistaking understanding something is harder with believing something to be difficult. Enemies that take longer to kill mean they get off more shots and are more likely to get you pinned in a corner should you not have a quick, efficient means of killing them.

No, the fact that they have these scaling enemies means they didn't choose the quantity route.

Also, wouldn't floors be more twitchy if you had more enemies on all sides firing at you rather than dealing with much less that can usually be easily controlled? Even on floor 4-5, it isn't often you are placed in a room with no cover AND an immense amount of enemies.

[Supernatural Cookie]

Personally, I've not found the later floors to be tough cause of health scaled enemies, but rather cause of the new ones introduced. The scaling just seemed to slow the gameplay down, making runs take longer with enemies that pose zero threat. Its more.. Dull than anything in my opinion. Kind of pointlessly drawing out the playtime of the game for no real benefit.

[D2daICE]

Bob eredeti hozzászólása:

Also, wouldn't floors be more twitchy if you had more enemies on all sides firing at you rather than dealing with much less that can usually be easily controlled? Even on floor 4-5, it isn't often you are placed in a room with no cover AND an immense amount of enemies.

Maybe the devs tested more enemies compared to stronger ones and it just didn't work out. It could be pretty easy to fu** your day up when those little ak bullet kins spawn en masse or the veteran ones.

Since RNG is a huge portion of the game you can't expect the game not to put several veteran shotgun/bullet kin on a room and make the game a real "hell" on chamber 3.

I never played real bullet hell games but i think levels there are not random and crafted with special intentions and patterns how the enemies will spawn every time - which wouldn't work in Enter the Gungeon.

[Misery]

D2daICE eredeti hozzászólása:

Bob eredeti hozzászólása:

Also, wouldn't floors be more twitchy if you had more enemies on all sides firing at you rather than dealing with much less that can usually be easily controlled? Even on floor 4-5, it isn't often you are placed in a room with no cover AND an immense amount of enemies.

Maybe the devs tested more enemies compared to stronger ones and it just didn't work out. It could be pretty easy to fu** your day up when those little ak bullet kins spawn en masse or the veteran ones.

Since RNG is a huge portion of the game you can't expect the game not to put several veteran shotgun/bullet kin on a room and make the game a real "hell" on chamber 3.

I never played real bullet hell games but i think levels there are not random and crafted with special intentions and patterns how the enemies will spawn every time - which wouldn't work in Enter the Gungeon.

But the enemies already arent random in this.

The selection of rooms that appear on each floor are, but the things that appear in them are not. Keep playing the game, and eventually you'll start to know what each room is going to throw at you when you see them. I havent had THAT much time with it yet but I'm already finding that I've memorized alot of them. You'll get to rooms, know what the first enemies are (always the same ones in the same spots), and you'll know what the next wave is going to be (if it's a room that has another wave), and exactly where they'll appear.

True randomness, in terms of enemy selection and placement, often doesnt work in this type of game. Nuclear Throne does it, sure, but that's a VERY different game. But Gungeon's way of doing it is pretty common.

And you're right, real bullet-hell games, or just shmups of any sort (that arent true arena shmups) usually have zero randomness. EVERYTHING is set in advance. Sometimes you might get some randomness inside of an actual attack pattern, but that's as far as it goes. So it makes sense to see that in games like this.