Game progression: A clear indicator of what is a problem.

[Winstontaneous]

Arguably, the game is 'difficult' (IE RNG insanity) in order to keep giving players a challenge. You keep progressing by unlocking the means to make it through the first level, second, third, etc; unlock weapons and passive items - which are all temporary, in order to get them later over and over again in different runs. You never know what your next run will look like, what you'll find in that chest, what layout the next room is in, and what bosses you'll be facing, until you do. You've unlocked everything. Now what?
Speedruns? Boss Rush?

What's the point? There are no leaderboards - which I'm not asking for anyway. There's no competitive community, and there's only local multiplayer. Some people enjoy where the bar is currently (read:arbitrarily) set for difficulty, others complain about difficulty because they either have less time to commit to one game (work and sleep tend to get in the way of mastering video games) or have plateaued at a certain skill level and can't beat (read:experience) most of the Gungeon.

Then that just means it will take you several more attempts (read:hours) to reach the next level, or get lucky and reach an unexpected mark - but only once or twice.

Some players enjoy the challenge and want to meet the game on its terms, others are frustrated by lack of progression and want to meet the game more on their own terms. Column A would give up and stop playing if the game were just made easier, without a challenge to their ability, and column B are giving up in frustration and finding something they'd rather do with their time.

Don't change the game that you wanted to make, just offer an alternate experience for the players that desire it. I've put 80 hours into this product, and I can say I've gotten my money's worth, but I feel wanting because I haven't gotten to any endings yet, the achievements and unlocks associated with them, or the experience (which I've seen on Youtube - others inspired me to purchase this game.) Because I feel the game is too difficult, I've uploaded screenshots of deaths I've suffered for various things: gold/item distribution, bosses/level difficulty spikes, etc.

Other games (Rogue Legacy, Hero Seige, Crypt of the Necrodancer) offer permanent upgrades, that make progression feel rewarding. I get the time travel mechanic taking you back to the beginning without you ever really dying, but again, if you make it to the 4th-5th floor in one run, you want to make it back to the same level soon, rather than every run being just as likely to end on the 2nd floor as the 5th.

[ei balls]

Save and exit feature is coming soon, thus fixing the problem of people not having enough time to play. You'll get better at the game if you play it enough. This game is kinda like The Binding Of Isaac; Good unlocks aren't required to beat the game. It is mostly skill based, I think.

[CyperAleksi]

Pretty sure I could beat the game with a starting pistol at this point if I really wanted to.

I myself think the difficulty is even a little low, but these kind of games I usually play a lot, so that could just be me.

[Ludic]

I can pretty consistently beat at least the normal game (e.g. the Dragun/the Past) on every run, regardless of drops (or even with intentionally limiting myself, like never using keys or money since I'm delivering that stuff to the elevator guy). RNG luck helps, but is *far* from the requirement that you're making it out to be.

I should also note that I didn't just beat it on my first try. It took me multiple runs before I beat my first Dragun, but now I do it pretty much every run. Keep at it with a sportsmanly attitude and eye for how you can improve your strategy and you will be able to do it!

It's not about upgrading your gear over multiple runs, and that's a beautiful thing. It's about upgrading *you* through learning stuff like the behavior of the enemies, the patterns of the Gungeon, or strategies to utilize your resources (whatever you may find) more efficiently.

[DasaKamov]

I'm going to disput your "no permanant upgrades" claim, since every gun, item, and passive ability is a Permanent Upgrade. Once unlocked, you're as likely to find a Mahoguny as a Makarov, and it has just as great a chance of appearing in Chamber 1 as it does in Chamber 5 (or beyond).

[Ludic]

Originally posted by </3 Jack:

the game is 'difficult' (IE RNG insanity)

Originally posted by </3 Jack:

Because I feel the game is too difficult, I've uploaded screenshots of deaths I've suffered for various things: gold/item distribution, bosses/level difficulty spikes, etc.

I took a look at your screenshots and... WTF? You had some solid hauls on all of those runs!

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/494654277146578760/6FE9CAE6890D9866AF21D3A0AE4183ACEB41B37A/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|1024:575&composite-to=*,*|1024:575&background-color=black
^---this death is not a result of bad luck. A crossbow alone is great for taking out Blobulord, but you also had a super space turtle, silencer, heart of ice, 97 gold, and an S tier dark marker which can clear all bullets from the screen while laying down damage. That's a haul that could have carried you through the game.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/494653450005544603/824D6B0B2DF804F3CAD3BA23A4E124C8976BD4C1/
^---Another example of a good haul. Plenty of cash, TWO early Cormorant pieces (!), a bullet upgrade, Blockner's gun, etc.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/493526614744162320/0B6A3A8CB012399117A471B4B118A7FEC843083C/?interpolation=lanczos-none&output-format=jpeg&output-quality=95&fit=inside|1024:575&composite-to=*,*|1024:575&background-color=black
^---Early fossilized gun? The one that lights the whole room on fire for a few points of ammo, and has 500 to spare? That thing is amazing, and will last you until Bullet Hell without needing to get extra ammo. Bundle of Wands and Bionic Leg are also great.

How are these supposed to be examples of bad luck? The idea that luck is to blame for you not getting to any endings yet is absurd with the loadouts I'm seeing in your screenshots.

You're going to keep losing if you keep blaming the game instead of trying to figure out where you made tactical mistakes. You are actually getting some fairly lucky gear here.

[CyperAleksi]

To be honest, that fossilized gun carries you even in Bullet Hell at times.

[QuantuuM]

It's amazing to me how many manchilds cannot accept responsibility in taking hits in this game.

[Michel Baie]

What do you mean lack of progression?
In one hand you unlock a bunch of useful stuff and loot over playing the game, in the other you progress and get better as a player.

And seeing the screeshots... man, just go watch a boss guide or watch some let's play and try to learn how they do it, you're clearly doing something wrong.
And stop going to the oubliettes if you can't kill the Blobulord reliably, focus on staying alive and getting to the forge.


Sure this game is difficult for the average joe, I killed my first past after some months, 70+ deaths and 40+ hours of play... I'm not really good and I still get some early deaths, but it's definitively doable.


As for experiencing the rest of the gungeon in an easier mode... well, it's a roguelite.
It's supposed to be stressful and difficult, it's a big part of the identity and experience of such games. At least for the good ones.
It's not an RPG that you could play just for the story.

But I suppose it can be doable, after all, Ziggurat features an easy mode and nobody had a problem with that.

[Winstontaneous]

Not every death is bad items (though I will say I haven't gotten the hang of using the fossilized gun without setting myself on fire yet)

Some screenshots are showing good loadouts too, because it shows the contrast between how good a good loadout is and the opposite, which there are many many screenshots of.

[Ludic]

Originally posted by </3 Jack:

Not every death is bad items (though I will say I haven't gotten the hang of using the fossilized gun without setting myself on fire yet)

Some screenshots are showing good loadouts too, because it shows the contrast between how good a good loadout is and the opposite, which there are many many screenshots of.

I couldn't find any where you had a bad one, though. There aren't any like, Klobbe/Pea Shooter/Sense of Direction/Mimic Friendship loadouts there or anything like that. Which ones are supposed to be bad? It may be that there are items that you think are bad that you just haven't gotten the hang of (as you have said is the case with the Fossilized Gun, which is really really good).

I did notice a ton of deaths in the Oubliette. Why not just skip it and go for the Dragun first?

I also notice you play the Pilot a lot. Playing characters that are not the Pilot will reduce the effect of the RNG on your game (all 3 other starting characters can clear the first three chambers pretty handily without any pickups at all).

[Michel Baie]

Originally posted by </3 Jack:

Not every death is bad items (though I will say I haven't gotten the hang of using the fossilized gun without setting myself on fire yet)

Some screenshots are showing good loadouts too, because it shows the contrast between how good a good loadout is and the opposite, which there are many many screenshots of.

Don't see that much bad loadouts there...

However I see quite a lot of death in the oubliettes.
Stop going there and use your keys to get items and guns instead.
You have all your time to get through the extra stuff once you're able to at least get to the forge reliably.

[Winstontaneous]

I've been trying to get the achievement for doing the secret floors (Key is in the oubliette) before focusing on reaching the ending(s)

I started with the pilot, now I mostly play the Hunter.

[Michel Baie]

Originally posted by </3 Jack:

I've been trying to get the achievement for doing the secret floors (Key is in the oubliette) before focusing on reaching the ending(s)

I started with the pilot, now I mostly play the Hunter.

You can try this achievement, but you probably shouldn't try in that order.
The second secret floor is about the same difficulty as the fourth floor, with the added challenge of being a little less equipped. And its boss is brutal.

Did you, as mentionned it an other thread, try the convict with manually firing her revolver as fast as possible? She truly make the two first floors easier once you know that.


Also, it may be quite dumb to ask but did you tried other games in which you could, maybe, hone your skills as a player a little more, in an easier setting, before trying to tackle the gungeon?
I'm asking because this game is pretty hard and probably not the friendlier one to approach the twin-stick genre, and I don't see another game like that in your steam library.

If you're looking for one that is more beginner friendly, there's Assaul Android Cactus.
Best twin-stick shooter ever made.
The global difficulty is quite easier (you can go through levels as long as you keep your timer/battery up, no matter how much times youy're KO'd in a stage... and you can skip stages too) while still presenting a real challenge and sense of progression once you're trying to get the better ranks for each stage.
There's even a little invincibility trick like the roll in the gungeon, except it happens when you switch weapons.

[Ludic]

Originally posted by Hibachi:

Did you, as mentionned it an other thread, try the convict with manually firing her revolver as fast as possible? She truly make the two first floors easier once you know that.

Put a 35-coin scope on it and she makes the first *four* floors easy with that revolver (it has dps close to the M1, it's just inaccurate by default). Seriously that revolver scales really well with upgrades compared to the other starting sidearms (since it has room to improve on accuracy and high DPS, and damage bonuses are multiplicative). Here's its performance on the fourth floor with a Scope/Litchy Trigger Finger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzMIUIagTWQ&feature=youtu.be

Originally posted by Hibachi:

If you're looking for one that is more beginner friendly, there's Assaul Android Cactus.
Best twin-stick shooter ever made.

Confirmed: Assault Android Cactus is indeed one of the best twin stick shooters money can buy. If you like twin stick shooters and have not played it, buy it now!

[Michel Baie]

Originally posted by LudicSavant:

Originally posted by Hibachi:

Did you, as mentionned it an other thread, try the convict with manually firing her revolver as fast as possible? She truly make the two first floors easier once you know that.

Put a 35-coin scope on it and she makes the first *four* floors easy with that revolver (it has dps close to the M1, it's just inaccurate by default). Seriously that revolver scales really well with upgrades compared to the other starting sidearms (since it has room to improve on accuracy and high DPS, and damage bonuses are multiplicative). Here's its performance on the fourth floor with a Scope/Litchy Trigger Finger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzMIUIagTWQ&feature=youtu.be

Man this is ridiculous.

You're only missing pop blessing to go with that and finishing the game without ever switching weapon.
Maybe with double vision when you just want to go through a boss really, really quick.