Any Advice For New PC (Mouse/Keyboard) Players?

[Yucchi]

I bought Gungeon a week ago, and I started binge watching videos on Gungeon and I realized that a lot of people use controllers, which to me makes Gungeon way more easier than using the mouse/keyboard. But I do not own a controller meaning I have to use the m/kb, making the game a whole lot more difficult for me, especially as a new player. Any tips on this? Or do I just have to get gud?

Edit: I struggle to get past the First Chamber Bosses!

[ZexxCrine]

unfortunately the answer is just to get good if you want to use keyboard and mouse. its not too bad though.

[Wolff]

I think its not that bad. Somehow the most roguelike are played with controller. I play emter then gungeon gungeon with and without controller. And somehow im better without.
But its funnier and easier with controller. :)

[Liy4b-Derg]

It makes me sad that people automatically think that m/kb is a death wish. Or should I be glad that I'm "good" for using it?

[Icedfate]

my advice is = don't try to play with the keyboard. get a controller. You will thank yourself. it costs money but it is worth the investment.
an Xbox controller is fine. I have no idea how a PS controller performs, as I have never used one.
The steam controller is good too.
some people think the steam controller doesn't work with this game. It does. you just have to launch the game from big picture mode, then you can press that button on the middle of the controller and get to the configuration settings and change the touchpad settings to a "right D-pad". for some reason, it defaults to "mouse like joystick" which is broken as hell.

a benefit to the steam controller is that it works outside of steam as well. you can configure keyboard buttons to the controller buttons and use it to play non steam games which normally don't support controllers. (example, some emulators, if you are into that sort of thing.)



the reasons I advise against keyboard.
1. too much finger gymnastics, having to press 4 keys for movement, another key for blanks, yet another key for flipping tables and yet another key for active items....
2. too much precision needed. the keyboard, when you press a key, it seems to move a set distance, as opposed to analog joystick which can give pinpoint movement. there are times when the dodge roll is not the right response. sometimes you need to weave in between bullets and not franticlly roll about. and the analog stick provides that precision.
3. too much multitasking. it takes more concentration to worry about aiming with the mouse while tapping keys to move while at the same time remembering to tap more keys for blanks and active items.
4. comfort. a controller fits in your hand and has all the buttons situated ergonomically for ideal muscle memory. once you get use to controller, it becomes like an extension of your hand and you don't even have to think about which button to press.


although, I recognize there are some pros to keyboard and mouse.

1 aiming precision. you can aim so much better with mouse. you pretty much need aim assist with controller, which actually has another slight problem, sometimes it locks on to a different enemy than the one you want to hit, like that poop slime in the middle of the shotgun shells in this one room in bullet hell. I actually used the mouse to "ace winchester's minigame 3 times"
2. weapon quick keys. you can press 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,etc... to select a specific weapon, based on the order that you picked them up, like an FPS. very convenient.
3. the trigger on the conrtoller can tire you out if you play too much. sometimes, myright hand hurts after a long session.

in the end, it comes down to preference. I prefer controller every time.

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by Femaiden:

my advice is = don't try to play with the keyboard. get a controller. You will thank yourself. it costs money but it is worth the investment.
an Xbox controller is fine. I have no idea how a PS controller performs, as I have never used one.
The steam controller is good too.
some people think the steam controller doesn't work with this game. It does. you just have to launch the game from big picture mode, then you can press that button on the middle of the controller and get to the configuration settings and change the touchpad settings to a "right D-pad". for some reason, it defaults to "mouse like joystick" which is broken as hell.

a benefit to the steam controller is that it works outside of steam as well. you can configure keyboard buttons to the controller buttons and use it to play non steam games which normally don't support controllers. (example, some emulators, if you are into that sort of thing.)



the reasons I advise against keyboard.
1. too much finger gymnastics, having to press 4 keys for movement, another key for blanks, yet another key for flipping tables and yet another key for active items....
2. too much precision needed. the keyboard, when you press a key, it seems to move a set distance, as opposed to analog joystick which can give pinpoint movement. there are times when the dodge roll is not the right response. sometimes you need to weave in between bullets and not franticlly roll about. and the analog stick provides that precision.
3. too much multitasking. it takes more concentration to worry about aiming with the mouse while tapping keys to move while at the same time remembering to tap more keys for blanks and active items.
4. comfort. a controller fits in your hand and has all the buttons situated ergonomically for ideal muscle memory. once you get use to controller, it becomes like an extension of your hand and you don't even have to think about which button to press.


although, I recognize there are some pros to keyboard and mouse.

1 aiming precision. you can aim so much better with mouse. you pretty much need aim assist with controller, which actually has another slight problem, sometimes it locks on to a different enemy than the one you want to hit, like that poop slime in the middle of the shotgun shells in this one room in bullet hell. I actually used the mouse to "ace winchester's minigame 3 times"
2. weapon quick keys. you can press 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,etc... to select a specific weapon, based on the order that you picked them up, like an FPS. very convenient.
3. the trigger on the conrtoller can tire you out if you play too much. sometimes, myright hand hurts after a long session.

in the end, it comes down to preference. I prefer controller every time.

I hate to talk to you directly like this but I have to correct one little thing. their really is no advantage to using a mouse and keyboard. you can scrap that whole segment from your post. the aim assist with controllers is so absurd that weapons with random spread(like the alien pistol for example) is actually useful because the aim assist compesates for the random firing angle. the aim assist is THAT busted for controllers. the alien pistol is basically one of the worst drops on keyboard and mouse because you cant hit anything with it. on controller its basically just another gun you can use with very little downsides. quick keys don't matter either since the game basically freeze frames when scrolling through your weapons anyway. thats not to say you shouldnt play with mouse and keyboard it is just inherently worse than controller. still perfectly doable though.

[Icedfate]

I'm confused, are you agreeing with me that controller is better?

the "keyboard pros" was my attempt to look on the bright side of things, that if one absolutely MUST use the keyboard, at least it has some advantages.

I still think the controller is better

also, why do you hate to talk to me directly? look,can't we put that other thread behind us and talk to each other like normal people do? I can be civil.

[ZexxCrine]

Originally posted by Femaiden:

I'm confused, are you agreeing with me that controller is better?

the "keyboard pros" was my attempt to look on the bright side of things, that if one absolutely MUST use the keyboard, at least it has some advantages.

I still think the controller is better

also, why do you hate to talk to me directly? look,can't we put that other thread behind us and talk to each other like normal people do? I can be civil.

yes I agree that controller is better. its just that their are no plus sides to keyboard and mouse. precision is better on a controller and hotkeys are redundent with the ability to time stop whenever.

[Helly]

IMO, m/kb is better than controller. It takes much less mental effort to move a mouse than a joystick to aim, meaning in tricky situations you can focus more on dodging. It also allows you to shoot more strategically, for example using the rebounds shots of the SAA to go through a group of enemies and hit the one at the back, or quickly flicking a liquid gun such as the mega douser to cover a room.

Also, don't worry about struggling with the first boss, a lot of people do. Just keep sticking at it, and you'll improve over time.

[Wilbur]

100%'d the game with keyboard/mouse. Its a fine way to play the game. I changed a few key bindings to my liking but other than that it works fine.

[Al]

having a controller is not going to strictly speaking ''ease'' the difficulty. yes, a controller has advantages like auto aim, but it takes alot of controll away from you.

i once played EtG at a friends house after completeing my first save file (pre supply drop update) and tried the controller for the first time there. my aim relied on autolock, so i was only aiming at a general direction rather at enemies, which lead to a feeling of unreliability in my aim.it also didnt help that aiming and looking is coded on controllers in such a way that your camera is always moving, so you get quickly disoriented. i also navigated the map at very slow speeds and the controlls, while being simpler, dropped the pace for me because i was already good enough to use complex finger gymnastics, because i use k/mb all the time, so a simplification made weapon switching more difficult.

since you use m/kb already, you should be in a position to play without the need of a controller. buying one just for this game really isn't worth it.

also, i finished my first run 40h in. this game is by design hard, don't get discouraged and don't blame your gear ;)

[Icedfate]

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

having a controller is not going to strictly speaking ''ease'' the difficulty. yes, a controller has advantages like auto aim, but it takes alot of controll away from you.

i once played EtG at a friends house after completeing my first save file (pre supply drop update) and tried the controller for the first time there. my aim relied on autolock, so i was only aiming at a general direction rather at enemies, which lead to a feeling of unreliability in my aim.it also didnt help that aiming and looking is coded on controllers in such a way that your camera is always moving, so you get quickly disoriented. i also navigated the map at very slow speeds and the controlls, while being simpler, dropped the pace for me because i was already good enough to use complex finger gymnastics, because i use k/mb all the time, so a simplification made weapon switching more difficult.

since you use m/kb already, you should be in a position to play without the need of a controller. buying one just for this game really isn't worth it.

also, i finished my first run 40h in. this game is by design hard, don't get discouraged and don't blame your gear ;)

I turned off the "zoom distance" I forget what it's called it's either "zoom distance" or "lock on distance", so the camera doesn't keep moving and disorient me.
I also turned off screen shake because that is distracting as well.

I still prefer the controler but I agree somehwta that the auto aim is unreliable. it has a tendency to lock on to the pots and barrels in the room instead of the enemies. so I'm basically forced to shoot down all the trash in a narrow hallway before I can start hitting the enemies.


I also have another situational one.
Remote bullets is a garbage pickup with the controller, but it's awesome with the mouse, especially if you find the crown of bullets. or anything with a large bullet spread.

I try to look at both sides, but I feel that the plus sides of mouse/keyboard do not outweight the plusses of a controller.

I know there are Isaac players who swear by keyboard and have gotten all 1,000,000% achievments with it, but IMO a dual stick shooter is meant to be played with dual sticks. (the steam controller touchpad does work as a right stick, you just need to change the settings)

[Helly]

Originally posted by Femaiden:

I also have another situational one.
Remote bullets is a garbage pickup with the controller, but it's awesome with the mouse, especially if you find the crown of bullets. or anything with a large bullet spread.

I would take remote bullets over the super hot watch. It's that powerful with m/kb.

[Al]

Originally posted by Femaiden:

I know there are Isaac players who swear by keyboard and have gotten all 1,000,000% achievments with it, but IMO a dual stick shooter is meant to be played with dual sticks. (the steam controller touchpad does work as a right stick, you just need to change the settings)

i neither claimed to be one of these isaac players, nor did i got 1,000,000% achievements. the way you phrased your post indicates that you see me as one of these people, which is wrong in every aspect. furthermore, i don't know any extreme opinions from isaac fans ''who swear by the keyboard'' ,but i digress.

i've been playing this game literally the day after it got released and there were massive problems with controller support, multiple patches just to fix them. if the devs intended EtG to be a twin stick shooter, shouldn't they've been putting alot more care into a decent c-support?

dont get me wrong, there were alot of bugs, even gamebreaking bugs, on launch but the design this game was aiming towards was from day 1 clear: basically isaac but a version that fixed the RNG reliability by amplifying the importance of skill. the devs put, not enough, but quite alot of work into the game before releasing it, putting out betas etc.

about that whole ''one side outweights the other thing'' , you clearly seem to be bias towards the controller:

your first point suggests that on keyboard there is ''too much finger gymnastics'', yet on your fourth point FOR controllers you said:

Originally posted by Femaiden:

4. comfort. a controller fits in your hand and has all the buttons situated ergonomically for ideal muscle memory. once you get use to controller, it becomes like an extension of your hand and you don't even have to think about which button to press.

but Zamber clearly states that he never used a controller before, how couldve he done that without even owning one? i said in my OP too that:

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

since you use m/kb already, you should be in a position to play without the need of a controller.

your muscle memory is not our muscle memory, we are used to keyboard, nullifying your argument

then there is your second point:

Originally posted by Femaiden:

2. too much precision needed. the keyboard, when you press a key, it seems to move a set distance, as opposed to analog joystick which can give pinpoint movement. there are times when the dodge roll is not the right response. sometimes you need to weave in between bullets and not franticlly roll about. and the analog stick provides that precision.

an analog stick can give you THEORETICALLY better precision, but you can also just gently press buttons or tap them, since there is no set walking distance coded to the movement. dont believe me? try to walk in all kinds of ways with a keyboard. your input is not tied to animations, so why should there be a restriction in movement in the first place? on a controller its even harder to controll that (irony) since you need to gently push the stick rather then quickly tapping it and again, Zamber is not used to controllers.

and last but not least:

Originally posted by Femaiden:

3. too much multitasking. it takes more concentration to worry about aiming with the mouse while tapping keys to move while at the same time remembering to tap more keys for blanks and active items.

oh boy. first of all, just move your mouse towards the enemies. if your weapon has spray and there is a group of enemies, you don't neet to worry about aim, plus youve still got manual controll over your cam, plus, incase you do need precision as in far away targets or single enemies, OR specific enemies, you can put care into your aim without relying on an autolock that may target he wrong specific enemy.

second of all, that whole tapping buisness youre complaining about, you have to do the SAME things on a controller, accept that a controller has all of its buttons circled around its main body, whereas a keayboard has everything, as the name implies, on a BOARD. again, prefferences.

in short, you can't tell a piano player to play guitar instead ,because you get a better feel, AND promise him that, even although a piano has upsides, a guitar outweights the reasons on why you should use it instead.

you want to have it both ways, but , and i don't mean to be rude, you're acting out of purely subjective opinions. in this given situation, a player is asking about controllers, because he may wants to buy one, for this specific game. youre derailing completely from the actual topic with arguments whose whole basis is that ''people are already used to controllers, why play keyboard'' even although he clearly isn't.

EDIT: fixed some quoting mistakes

[Icedfate]

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

Originally posted by Femaiden:

I know there are Isaac players who swear by keyboard and have gotten all 1,000,000% achievments with it, but IMO a dual stick shooter is meant to be played with dual sticks. (the steam controller touchpad does work as a right stick, you just need to change the settings)

i neither claimed to be one of these isaac players, nor did i got 1,000,000% achievements. the way you phrased your post indicates that you see me as one of these people, which is wrong in every aspect. furthermore, i don't know any extreme opinions from isaac fans ''who swear by the keyboard'' ,but i digress.

uh no, I made no assumption that you were one of those players. I was not even aware that you played Isaac. I merely made a statement that "there are Isaac players out there that swear by the keyboard".

stop trying to read between the lines for hidden meanings where there are none.
I speak directly, I say what I mean.

at least, I try. sometimes I do misinterpret things and make mistakes in phrasing.

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

Originally posted by Femaiden:

4. comfort. a controller fits in your hand and has all the buttons situated ergonomically for ideal muscle memory. once you get use to controller, it becomes like an extension of your hand and you don't even have to think about which button to press.

but Zamber clearly states that he never used a controller before, how couldve he done that without even owning one? i said in my OP too that:

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

since you use m/kb already, you should be in a position to play without the need of a controller.

your muscle memory is not our muscle memory, we are used to keyboard, nullifying your argument

again. I made no assumptions that zambar has used controllers in the past. I merely stated that one of the advantages to a controller is comfort and once you get used to it, your muscle memory takes over.

the operative phase is "once you get used to it". so if I made any assumptions at all, it was that Zambars was NOT used to controllers and I was advising them to try and get used to it.

a controller fits in the palm of your hand, while you have to arc your wrists over the keyboard.
there's a reason that typists/data entry people/ people who use computers at work get carpal tunnel syndrome.

these are opinions, yes. maybe I just never got used to typing. my WPM never got beyond 40. there are people that have over 100. I dunno how they do it, I guess in the same way that I dunno how people 1,000,000% Isaac with the keyboard.

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

then there is your second point:

Originally posted by Femaiden:

2. too much precision needed. the keyboard, when you press a key, it seems to move a set distance, as opposed to analog joystick which can give pinpoint movement. there are times when the dodge roll is not the right response. sometimes you need to weave in between bullets and not franticlly roll about. and the analog stick provides that precision.

an analog stick can give you THEORETICALLY better precision, but you can also just gently press buttons or tap them, since there is no set walking distance coded to the movement. dont believe me? try to walk in all kinds of ways with a keyboard. your input is not tied to animations, so why should there be a restriction in movement in the first place? on a controller its even harder to controll that (irony) since you need to gently push the stick rather then quickly tapping it and again, Zamber is not used to controllers.

I've tried to move with precision with the keyboard. I try to tap it as lightly as possible and my character often will move too far and get hit when I didn't want to.

Originally posted by G|_!tch:

and last but not least:


you want to have it both ways, but , and i don't mean to be rude, you're acting out of purely subjective opinions. in this given situation, a player is asking about controllers, because he may wants to buy one, for this specific game. youre derailing completely from the actual topic with arguments whose whole basis is that ''people are already used to controllers, why play keyboard'' even although he clearly isn't.

EDIT: fixed some quoting mistakes

I'm gonna skip aruging about that last part because.
when did this become a factual debate?
you insist that it's "opinions"
well Duh doi

I'm presenting opinions.

the OP asked for tips on using the keyboard.

I presented my OPINION.
my opinion is don't even try. get a controller.
I make no assumption that people "already know how to use a controller"
my advice was to learn to use a controller.

just because you a familiar with the keyboard for gaming, doesn't make it a better gaming peripheral.
keyboard/mouse IS certainly better for certain games.
I would never suggest playing an RTS with a controller.
and FPS can be played with either.


my numbered bullet(heh) points were not elitist D-bag statements.
I did not present anything as "fact"
I merely presented a comparison/contrast in an attempt to give feedback.

OF COURSE I am biased toward the controller, because I use one.
by presenting the pros of using a keyboard, I was attempting to reduce my controller bias by looking at both sides of the coin and help the OP make a better informed desicion over hich one to use.

the OP says "give me tips on using keyboard" which is pretty vague in and of itself.

BUT instead of giving a vague answer, I tried to be as comprehensive as possible in listing as many aspects as I could think of about using both peripherals.

so I don't feel that I derailed this at all.

I realize the OP stated themself that they feel that the game looks easier with a controller but they also stated that they don't own one.
I tried to advise them to work towards getting a controller and get used to using it. I even provided some tips on how to make the steam controller work with this game.

how the ♥♥♥♥ am I derailing the discussion?

in fact, you are the one derailing it by attempting to shoot down every one of my opinions with strawman arguments which is taking attention away from the OP and obfustating that entire issue.

somehow I triggered you and you seem to think that I'm trolling you and think you can slay me.

maybe it's because of that other thread, I dunno.

I am not your enemy.

so, I guess this is what happens when people try to help, huh?

would it have been better if I just told them to "git gud"?

[Helly]

Can we just stop arguing and agree that touchscreen and rollerball is the best gaming peripheral? Tap to shoot, roll to move, what more could you want?