POTENTIAL SPOILERS!!!! : Bad puzzle design - Q team Biolab

[Matiorasu_TTV]

The Biolab section for Q team in this game is some of the worst ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ puzzle design I've ever seen in a game.

It starts with the damn specimen minigame. I don't know if the puzzle eventually gives you a hint if you screw up one too many times, but the puzzle's built in such a way that you're gonna be pretty aware if you're doing it wrong-- meaning you're ideally not going to hit 'check' until you get the clue. I had no idea that the Blue Xs corresponded to where you were supposed to put the turning points (Red Xs) because it wasn't explained. I thought-- like in an earlier puzzle, the Blue Xs were constraints where you weren't allowed to put pieces.

Next, there's the damn Centrifuge cover going into the microwave. (Or whatever you'd have me call that thing) Maybe if I had paid more attention the first time I clicked on it, there may have been a hint as to what I was supposed to do with it. HOWEVER, every click after that, it doesn't tell you what the weird little microwave does, and if you didn't see it the first time, then you're just going to have to trial and error with everything you have. (Or just look it up like I did.)

Now I can chalk my first complaint up to failing to think outside the box, and my second to having not listened the first time (and the only time) you are told what you are supposed to do with a piece of the puzzle.

What I CANNOT excuse is the part where you find the scalpel in the sink cupboard after having moved the sink across the room. I have tried SO many ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ times to open the cupboard prior to this-- While the sink was still across the room, while the light was green, and so on and so forth. ONLY after you've knocked the Pig out of the glass does the cupboard arbitrarily become a point of interest. It's a slap across the face that I've tried so many times to open the cupboard before this, and only NOW am I allowed to.

[Matiorasu_TTV]

And another complaint about an unrelated thing.

It's a tad disingenuous when Team X piles on Junpei for celebrating Rolling all three dice as 1s and living through that seemingly impossible situation. Then they wax philosophical about how it may indeed have been a miracle if they had done it on the 'first try'.

And then the game proceeds to beat you over the head with how 'well, even impossible odds are pretty easy to shoot for when you can try as many times as you like'. Like some sly quip at the user for having the audacity to try the scene more than twice. But it's let down by its own pretentiousness because not only is that NOT random (literally, it's always going to happen the third time, no matter what. Never first or second), but then it tries to scold the player for trying it again and again?

Let me be clear. I love Spike Chunsoft games, but with each Zero Escape game, it feels like the story and writing are constantly threatening to disappear up their own ass, and I don't appreciate how the gameplay is suffering in all this pointless decadence.

I for one, really love the part where You are tasked to type in the name of the person you'd like to kill. and I had lots of fun trying different stuff-- starting with 'Myself', 'Zero', 'Gab' and even some people who were already deceased just to see what it had to say, but it was a chilling moment when I typed 'Q' and it responded with 'Please type Q's Name'. It's a neatly effective moment, but it's let down by the fact that if you type the names of either of the two people who are in the room with you at that time, Eric invariably winds up dying even if you type "Mira", "Eric", or "No one". So no matter what choice you make (excluding maybe knowing what Q's name is), Eric is guranteed to die.

[Dirty Dan]

Originally posted by Matiorasu(Nick Wilde):

The Biolab section for Q team in this game is some of the worst ♥♥♥♥ing puzzle design I've ever seen in a game.

It starts with the damn specimen minigame. I don't know if the puzzle eventually gives you a hint if you screw up one too many times, but the puzzle's built in such a way that you're gonna be pretty aware if you're doing it wrong-- meaning you're ideally not going to hit 'check' until you get the clue. I had no idea that the Blue Xs corresponded to where you were supposed to put the turning points (Red Xs) because it wasn't explained. I thought-- like in an earlier puzzle, the Blue Xs were constraints where you weren't allowed to put pieces.

Next, there's the damn Centrifuge cover going into the microwave. (Or whatever you'd have me call that thing) Maybe if I had paid more attention the first time I clicked on it, there may have been a hint as to what I was supposed to do with it. HOWEVER, every click after that, it doesn't tell you what the weird little microwave does, and if you didn't see it the first time, then you're just going to have to trial and error with everything you have. (Or just look it up like I did.)

Now I can chalk my first complaint up to failing to think outside the box, and my second to having not listened the first time (and the only time) you are told what you are supposed to do with a piece of the puzzle.

What I CANNOT excuse is the part where you find the scalpel in the sink cupboard after having moved the sink across the room. I have tried SO many ♥♥♥♥ing times to open the cupboard prior to this-- While the sink was still across the room, while the light was green, and so on and so forth. ONLY after you've knocked the Pig out of the glass does the cupboard arbitrarily become a point of interest. It's a slap across the face that I've tried so many times to open the cupboard before this, and only NOW am I allowed to.

Just earlier today I finished the game, and even though I don't agree with all your points, I agree with your general sentiments.
1. The "Biolab specimen minigame" I thought was actually pretty clear, though it may depend on how you played the game. I liked to play whole branches at once, and so when I was trying to fully complete C team first, in the Rec room you have a puzzle that uses the same basic principle, but in my mind is much harder. The differences were obvious, the puzzle in that room didn't have x's on them, but the one in the biolab did so they must work differently even though they're basically the same game. I will admit, even with that prior experience, it still took me a a minute or two to figure it out, but the moment I realized that both the specimen and the board have x's, I immediately "got" it. If just the board had it, your reasoning would make sense, but the specimens also have the x on them.

Overall, it's not that bad, and there are far worse design decisions to point out.

2. Again, this might be due to my experience playing C team entirely and having some experience in the pantry room, but chances are if there is a microwave, you will use it. It's not like there are that many items that you get, it doesn't take that much time to try every item on the microwave. Initially, I actually thought that I was putting the pan/cover in there so that I could put the two "mixtures" in there at the same time and take them out. You don't need to know exactly what it does, it's a flat looking tray and it makes sense to be put into something that looks like a microwave oven of sorts.

It's put right next to some sort of dissection area as well, so even if you can't make the tray and microwave connection, it's put in an area where a tray would normally be put around anyway.

3. I can almost completely agree with this, if Mira didn't tell me exactly where to look after I clicked either the cart or pig a couple times. It is absolutely arbitrary and not well thought out, but the game will literally tell you where to find it. If the game didn't outright tell me where to look, It would've been a bigger problem since I would've had to turn the room upside down again, but the game did so it doesn't matter as much. Bad design decision, regardless of if they are going to literally give me the answer the very next second.

Originally posted by Matiorasu(Nick Wilde):

And another complaint about an unrelated thing.

It's a tad disingenuous when Team X piles on Junpei for celebrating Rolling all three dice as 1s and living through that seemingly impossible situation. Then they wax philosophical about how it may indeed have been a miracle if they had done it on the 'first try'.

And then the game proceeds to beat you over the head with how 'well, even impossible odds are pretty easy to shoot for when you can try as many times as you like'. Like some sly quip at the user for having the audacity to try the scene more than twice. But it's let down by its own pretentiousness because not only is that NOT random (literally, it's always going to happen the third time, no matter what. Never first or second), but then it tries to scold the player for trying it again and again?

Let me be clear. I love Spike Chunsoft games, but with each Zero Escape game, it feels like the story and writing are constantly threatening to disappear up their own ass, and I don't appreciate how the gameplay is suffering in all this pointless decadence.

I for one, really love the part where You are tasked to type in the name of the person you'd like to kill. and I had lots of fun trying different stuff-- starting with 'Myself', 'Zero', 'Gab' and even some people who were already deceased just to see what it had to say, but it was a chilling moment when I typed 'Q' and it responded with 'Please type Q's Name'. It's a neatly effective moment, but it's let down by the fact that if you type the names of either of the two people who are in the room with you at that time, Eric invariably winds up dying even if you type "Mira", "Eric", or "No one". So no matter what choice you make (excluding maybe knowing what Q's name is), Eric is guranteed to die.

4. Yeah, that whole moment when they pile on Junpei was kind of B.S. And as a guy who did try it only two times and assumed that I'd have to keep retrying over and over so i went onto another fragment, and subsequently was stuck later because it was necessary to get through the story to try it one more time(and didn't show any exclamation mark or anything to show importance) it was kind of disappointing. I actually felt like I was pretty lucky when I got it, but then I'm pretty sure June specifically mentions the number three when she isn't celebrating so it made me feel a whole lot less "special" to find out that it was scripted. I mean several moments are based on luck throughout the whole game, hell the first decision in the game is technically based on luck.

P.S. Why would you censor what team Junpei was chastized by? It's revealed early on what team he's on, and it's not like he was chewed out by any other team. Additionally, June being not as happy partially makes sense, but Carlos should've been just as happy as Junpei, if not more.

5. I loved many of the twists and turn this game and VLR had, but I also agree that storywise, the game suffers a lot due to a lot of care going to one part of the story and not going to another.

Example, (and I'm essentially spoiling the whole game in these next few spoilers so be warned) Team D's "story" is the most interesting and probably the most logical of them all, and they were able to tie into VLR with relatively little problem. The whole "D" story is great, and it sets the stage for almost the entire game, if not the entire franchise. The whole "alien" bit is the most egregious thing, but I see no other way they could've moved Sigma and Diana without also making technology be made by aliens. If it was made by humans, then that complicates things too much and allows too much to happen.

Team Q, however,(even though I admit I may have liked their dialogue interactions more then any other teams) is frustratingly under-explored and overlooked. A. Mira is a literal serial killer, yet you can never name her as the murderer in the June Chainsaw-Carlos Axe sequence, or really any scenario whatsoever. She isn't explored past the "Kill someone" timeline, she exists to kill Junpei and make Eric happy/sad and that's it. B. Q might be the exception to what I'm saying, but he is definitely the weakest of the three protagonists. Carlos jumps multiple times and does some of the most "adventuring" in the game, and the aforementioned Diana gets plenty of screen time that impacts both backwards and forwards for the series as a whole. Q is shockingly not really a kid, but that's about it. Spoiler for anyone who hasn't played VLR: This was both half and fully done in VLR, with Sigma and Luna. C. Eric's "arc" seemed like it was going somewhere when Mira was dead, but it didn't go anywhere. You learn that he has a tragic backstory, but it's not tied into almost ANYTHING that happens, besides maybe smiling while he killed people.

What most frustrates me about the scenario you described in game where you are tasked with killing someone in the room is not that they result in what is basically the exact same ending, but that with the exception of the ending where Eric sacrifices himself, none of it makes sense, and all the stuff learned contradicts several things in the game. This whole scenario showcases the issues with Q team as a whole. If you shoot Mira, Eric understandably tries to save her. Mira gets mad at you for trying to kill her, and kills Q.. If you shoot Eric, she admits that she's a serial killer and leaves with you. Do you spot the contradiction? She doesn't feel emotion, and you are no longer a threat since a crossbow is one shot, yet she kills you in the "Mira Shot" scenario. Why? You aren't a threat, and you have presumably the 6th X-pass in the bag by that point. She seems to display anger, but she said in another time line that she doesn't feel things like anger, yet it's the only explanation for killing Q. I don't have any problem with the "What is Q's name" ending, but when you type in "Nobody", the in-game reasoning is just as loose. It makes sense that Eric would turn on Q, but Eric has the grenade launcher that blew up the whole glass door just moments ago. He's not just a threat to Q, he's a threat to everyone in that room, and the grenade should've killed every last one of them. And even if I grant that the launcher has a magic mode to "only kill Q", the ending still makes little sense. Mira is allegedly devoid of emotion, not logical sense. Why would she leave the bunker with Eric, instead of just killing him there? She had enough sense when she was young to kill someone when she was alone and presumably had done it for years without being caught, did she lose all her logical thinking?

And let's go outside this one scenario; Zero allegedly let her run around the facility doing what she wanted yet in almost all cut scenes she's still shown falling asleep. Hell, she's even still executed in some playthroughs, and she just let this happen? Hell, in the final ending no one even acknowledges that she was responsible for almost as much killing as zero was.

Eric is allegedly traumatized by his father molesting/strangling his younger brother, yet when Q(who Eric even acknowledges was about Q's age when he -cough- died), says that "Daddy" or "Chris" killed Mira, he doesn't react at all. Furthermore, I don't see why "Radical", "Mira", or even "Zero" couldn't be used to get passed Eric. Eric acknowledges the term "Zero", but he says he only killed her in a general sense. Why doesn't he accept that Zero could be the killer? Furthermore, if we accept that Q can jump, why can't he use "Radical" or "Mira", and simply show Eric the biolab and describe that she may have killed herself due to Radical-6? For all they know, they went to the room in that timeline.

Overall, they didn't completely drop the ball with this game, it does enough things differently and enough things competently/well to get a good rating from me, but somethings they obviously didn't put much thought into and it shows. "Hey you guys are all SHIFTers, but me and Eric aren't, what are we going to do?" "Just pull it out of your ass or something IDC/IDK"