A interesting watch, on a dying Genre.

[Ceciliantas]

This guy been at it for many years. But makes alot of solid points. Does make it concerning for Pantheon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlbbZc0jhL0&t=137s

[Googledebunker]

Imo he is a hack that has been doomsaying the mmorpg genre with clickbait for years.

[Tanist]

I think gaming is dying in general due to various reasons.


As it concerns MMOs, I would say it is because they stopped being games and started being gimmicks.

When you remove the key aspects of what a game is, you end up with chasing useless rewards that have little meaning and defeat the concept of play.

Also, "game" doesn't just mean "combat" encounters as there are numerous elements of play that are part of the strategy and I think many of those elements were removed over the years due to the demand of "convenience" as well as the inability of developers and many players to recognize that part of the enjoyment in a game is the negatives of an obstacle to which ultimately rewards a positive. Without the negatives, the positive loses its meaning.

[Veeshan]

Originally posted by Tanist:

Also, "game" doesn't just mean "combat" encounters as there are numerous elements of play that are part of the strategy and I think many of those elements were removed over the years due to the demand of "convenience" as well as the inability of developers and many players to recognize that part of the enjoyment in a game is the negatives of an obstacle to which ultimately rewards a positive. Without the negatives, the positive loses its meaning.

My analysis on this issue is that it isn't any blindness on the part of the developers, the reverse in fact. At some point, caving to the money, developers en mass realized that the majority of gamers do in fact prefer this casual arcade style dopamine rush. It's why action has always outsold RPGs etc.

I think we all misinterpreted what everyone would want because not everyone was playing. They were pigeon holed into the sports games, back in the day.

Basically when games stopped being half spreadsheet they started being spectacles.

[EQOAnostalgia]

Not shook.

[MugHug]

Originally posted by Prince Cera:

Imo he is a hack that has been doomsaying the mmorpg genre with clickbait for years.

Nope.

Sounds like you are bias and un-objective.

[MugHug]

If the older (literally ancient) games are at the top of the list in 2024 then that should tell us all something - including the deniers.

Hard to ignore that so many reviewers out there think so. But based on some posts it seems certain people still live in their own fantasy world on the topic or are just simply blockheads.

Anything else is just flannel.

[EQOAnostalgia]

Doesn't matter. World will self destruct or i'll expire before the genre is dead. A silly worry to have at my age lol.

[Ceciliantas]

Originally posted by MugHug:

If the older (literally ancient) games are at the top of the list in 2024 then that should tell us all something - including the deniers.

Hard to ignore that so many reviewers out there think so. But based on some posts it seems certain people still live in their own fantasy world on the topic or are just simply blockheads.

Anything else is just flannel.

Just tells us that if I wanna play EQ, ill go play EQ.

This is trying way too hard to be EQ. Needs modern improvements to set itself apart while keeping the core experience that is EQ. it can be done.

[Googledebunker]

Originally posted by MugHug:

Originally posted by Prince Cera:

Imo he is a hack that has been doomsaying the mmorpg genre with clickbait for years.

Sounds like you are bias and un-objective.

Glad you caught that. I don't like him as a content creator, and I don't value his opinion.
At the end of the day he is 1 guy with an opinion, you can agree with him, or disagree with him, that's perfectly fine.

[MadConsular]

Originally posted by Prince Cera:

Imo he is a hack that has been doomsaying the mmorpg genre with clickbait for years.

Agreed but that's all reviewers. I'm sure children idolize them and think they're geniuses though. Such is to be a child

[Tanist]

Originally posted by Veeshan:

Originally posted by Tanist:

Also, "game" doesn't just mean "combat" encounters as there are numerous elements of play that are part of the strategy and I think many of those elements were removed over the years due to the demand of "convenience" as well as the inability of developers and many players to recognize that part of the enjoyment in a game is the negatives of an obstacle to which ultimately rewards a positive. Without the negatives, the positive loses its meaning.

My analysis on this issue is that it isn't any blindness on the part of the developers, the reverse in fact. At some point, caving to the money, developers en mass realized that the majority of gamers do in fact prefer this casual arcade style dopamine rush. It's why action has always outsold RPGs etc.

I think we all misinterpreted what everyone would want because not everyone was playing. They were pigeon holed into the sports games, back in the day.

Basically when games stopped being half spreadsheet they started being spectacles.

I think you are likely right.

Consider console market vs PC (before they essentially merged). Consoles attended to a very specific type of player. Many action oriented, and many of the casual nature.

It made sense how games were designed for consoles due to their market.

MMOs initially were focused on the PC market and naturally design followed suit.

WoW brought in more of the console/mainstream market due to low cost PCs being able to run them and the fact that PCs that could play these games became more common in households.

Once the market began to merge (ie Console games porting to PC rather than only select PC titles porting to console) and most games were first made for console and later ported to PC, that design focus drove the PC game market and ultimately the MMO market.

The fact is, casual/console market is much larger and the original PC market and style was placed on the back burner.

What we have today represents that market and I think you are right, developers catered to that because it was the largest demand and in a business, you go after the larger markets unless you have a very specific goal and business plan to attend to the lesser market.

Unfortunately, the mainstream market has convinced itself that the reason its development focus is served is because it is "better", which is incorrect, it is merely a different focus and style of play to which some may find enjoyable, but to others (myself and others seeking this game), it may defeat the point.

[Urban Blackbear]

Originally posted by qhristoff:

what killed mmos are daily quests, token-currency loot, and toxic combat-only group play.

not maps, or more elegant death systems, but the lack of things to do OTHER than combat when in a group.

the number of people that find what your nostalgia glasses call "better" is miniscule compared to the size of population required to keep a game like this up and running.

you should be BEGGING other people to play this game so that the devs can ADD a hardcore, niche mode just for you down the road.

YOU are the loud, small minority holding everyone else back.

I am? Oh man. I'm killing another something something. I guess I'll add Pantheon to the list of...well everything.

[Mentally Impaired Tiny Troll]

Originally posted by qhristoff:

what killed mmos are daily quests, token-currency loot, and toxic combat-only group play.

not maps, or more elegant death systems, but the lack of things to do OTHER than combat when in a group.

the number of people that find what your nostalgia glasses call "better" is miniscule compared to the size of population required to keep a game like this up and running.

you should be BEGGING other people to play this game so that the devs can ADD a hardcore, niche mode just for you down the road.

YOU are the loud, small minority holding everyone else back.

The "hardcore" people who want an "old school" MMO don't really understand what made games like EverQuest, Asheron's Call, and Star Wars Galaxies appealing. They think superficial affectations like "leaving a corpse" or "having no map" or "your spells are scrolls" are what defined those MMOs and made them work.

[Urban Blackbear]

Originally posted by qhristoff:

Originally posted by Urban Blackbear:

I am? Oh man. I'm killing another something something. I guess I'll add Pantheon to the list of...well everything.

well, since you took it upon yourself to think my reply was to you and not to the post directly above what I wrote ...

yes, you are part of the problem.

at the furthest reaches of context, i could have been replying to the OP ... which is also not you.

I was making fun of your rhetoric. Take a deep breath and relax. Life is to short to be angry about things you have no interest in.

[Eridan]

Originally posted by qhristoff:

for every question you might ask, they will tell you to use websites outside of the game. and don't learn together either, you're expected to know everything before you group up.

At last an interesting point.

Now how do you suggest they solve that? Because as far as I know, this is definitely not something anyone can control when making a game.