Gear is just... not exciting... so far...

[Ol' Crispy]

Can anyone give me some examples of gear to be excited about? I'm a main necromancer and gearing seems to mean almost nothing except weapon damage influencing my Induce Nausea heavily (same with wizards A+1 ability).

+1 intelligence seems negligible and it seems to be all about character level relative to mob level.

[Flüüüümpel]

https://shalazam.info/items/2225-crystalline-veil

https://shalazam.info/items?category=cloth_armor

[XvHavennvX]

+1 i nthis game is a power spike every stat will mean something as you level. It wont be woahhhh super epic +75 agi /str spear......itll be +2/3 agi str etc. The WoW themepark everyone has an epic outlook for gear wont fit.

[Enferno]

Keep in mind that when EQ launched back in 1999 (the game they're inspired by) didn't have very many items with + stats either. 99% of the items were nothing but plain AC. Until you got strong enough to raid Nagafen and Lady Vox, then later they added Plane of Fear. Outside of those, they had very little items that had + to stats and the ones that did only had +1 to a specific stat and +5 hp.

Now EQ has items with +10k hp / +500 stats / resists / etc... insane compared to launch. So, keep that in mind.

[Urban Blackbear]

Originally posted by Enferno:

Keep in mind that when EQ launched back in 1999 (the game they're inspired by) didn't have very many items with + stats either. 99% of the items were nothing but plain AC. Until you got strong enough to raid Nagafen and Lady Vox, then later they added Plane of Fear. Outside of those, they had very little items that had + to stats and the ones that did only had +1 to a specific stat and +5 hp.

Now EQ has items with +10k hp / +500 stats / resists / etc... insane compared to launch. So, keep that in mind.

This is all very true. I believe the low numbers we're seeing are to combat scale inflation in the future. I've seen many MMOs where its out of control. For instance raid bosses that have 60,000,000 HP and everyone doing tens of thousands of DPS. What we have here in Pantheon is small but still meaningful increases as you work your way through the tiers.

[Keenfire]

Let's do a hypothetical:
+1 on a stat that you only have 8 of is a 12.5% increase. That's substantial. The first person to respond to the op linked a necklace that had +3 stat... or 35.5% increase.

[Tanist]

EQ was never a gear treadmill to be honest. You would gain items over the course of the levels 1-50 and it was not uncommon to still be wearing some items you picked up in the early levels.

Sure there was always the goal of trying to find better, but it isn't like modern MMOs where every level was a new gear set.

That said, I would say Pantheon has a stronger leaning to modern vs traditional on this front, but not a major "linear" progression in power, more an "expanding" of stats as you level.

For instance, in the first 1-10 range, you will get items with a single +1 stat and can fill out a full set of gear in this manner with group based items having more stats to them (ie +1 str +1 sta +resist, etc...). By 15-20 solo mobs are dropping new set upgrades that all have 2 sets of stats on them and the group gear continues to have more and occasionally higher +2, etc...)

So far, this seems to be the progression and I would assume by level 50, gear would be in the +5 range... maybe with the items having multiple bonuses to multiple stats and effects.

I don't think they want to follow the route of massive increases (they really don't need to as that is just a visual for players and really has nothing to do with the background improvements).

Point is, the modern gear treadmill isn't likely to be a focus, and as I see it now, while not as slow as EQ, it certainly isn't anywhere near as it is in games today. The point of play will be more looking for upgrades which with the rare system will be a goal, not the constant changing out of new gear with each level.

[Tyvolus]

Originally posted by Tanist:

EQ was never a gear treadmill to be honest. You would gain items over the course of the levels 1-50 and it was not uncommon to still be wearing some items you picked up in the early levels.

Sure there was always the goal of trying to find better, but it isn't like modern MMOs where every level was a new gear set.

That said, I would say Pantheon has a stronger leaning to modern vs traditional on this front, but not a major "linear" progression in power, more an "expanding" of stats as you level.

For instance, in the first 1-10 range, you will get items with a single +1 stat and can fill out a full set of gear in this manner with group based items having more stats to them (ie +1 str +1 sta +resist, etc...). By 15-20 solo mobs are dropping new set upgrades that all have 2 sets of stats on them and the group gear continues to have more and occasionally higher +2, etc...)

So far, this seems to be the progression and I would assume by level 50, gear would be in the +5 range... maybe with the items having multiple bonuses to multiple stats and effects.

I don't think they want to follow the route of massive increases (they really don't need to as that is just a visual for players and really has nothing to do with the background improvements).

Point is, the modern gear treadmill isn't likely to be a focus, and as I see it now, while not as slow as EQ, it certainly isn't anywhere near as it is in games today. The point of play will be more looking for upgrades which with the rare system will be a goal, not the constant changing out of new gear with each level.

whilst I shall concede EQ was nowhere near the out of control gear treadmill of modern MMOs, it was still a huge part of the game. EQ had 2 core tenents of gameplay, you earned XP, and got loot. Loot was the game. granted not to the extent where in modern MMOs, you get a great piece of gear in the morning, and when you log off in the afternoon its already outdated

[Tanist]

Originally posted by Tyvolus:

Originally posted by Tanist:

EQ was never a gear treadmill to be honest. You would gain items over the course of the levels 1-50 and it was not uncommon to still be wearing some items you picked up in the early levels.

Sure there was always the goal of trying to find better, but it isn't like modern MMOs where every level was a new gear set.

That said, I would say Pantheon has a stronger leaning to modern vs traditional on this front, but not a major "linear" progression in power, more an "expanding" of stats as you level.

For instance, in the first 1-10 range, you will get items with a single +1 stat and can fill out a full set of gear in this manner with group based items having more stats to them (ie +1 str +1 sta +resist, etc...). By 15-20 solo mobs are dropping new set upgrades that all have 2 sets of stats on them and the group gear continues to have more and occasionally higher +2, etc...)

So far, this seems to be the progression and I would assume by level 50, gear would be in the +5 range... maybe with the items having multiple bonuses to multiple stats and effects.

I don't think they want to follow the route of massive increases (they really don't need to as that is just a visual for players and really has nothing to do with the background improvements).

Point is, the modern gear treadmill isn't likely to be a focus, and as I see it now, while not as slow as EQ, it certainly isn't anywhere near as it is in games today. The point of play will be more looking for upgrades which with the rare system will be a goal, not the constant changing out of new gear with each level.

whilst I shall concede EQ was nowhere near the out of control gear treadmill of modern MMOs, it was still a huge part of the game. EQ had 2 core tenents of gameplay, you earned XP, and got loot. Loot was the game. granted not to the extent where in modern MMOs, you get a great piece of gear in the morning, and when you log off in the afternoon its already outdated

Sure, but the pace is the key I think here.

Contrast (more early EQ) with modern MMOs.

In EQ you could be level 40 wearing a range of level 10-40 items. They were still effective and gave meaningful results in play. There was always something "better" to gain, but because of the rare system, they were "quests" in and of themselves and took much time to acquire with some being those "unicorn" items that you may never have obtained due to that rarity.

Now with games like WoW, quest and dungeon drops are designed to be rewarded in a level range. The player upgrades constantly with every level being a complete new gear reward range and this pace was so fast that if you leveled too quickly, you could swap out items daily.

I remember having worked very hard on release WoW to do MC/BWL and after a lot of time gaining those raid rewards, walking into BC where the first blue item from an easy quest rewarded the equivalent of a BWL raid drop. By the time I was a level or two in, I had replaced everything I had spent an enormous amount of time earning, there by making all of that effort... meaningless.

So while gear treadmill is a part of play and was the focus with EQ, it wasn't the progression that modern MMOs are. It was slow, even, and due to the style of play (ie camping rares), each reward was useful far after its level range acquisition. That is, while gearing was the point, the game wasn't about the "reward" as much as it was the process of obtaining them.

[HammerHand]

Originally posted by Keenfire:

Let's do a hypothetical:
+1 on a stat that you only have 8 of is a 12.5% increase. That's substantial. The first person to respond to the op linked a necklace that had +3 stat... or 35.5% increase.

100% this. At level 5-10 in Wilds End I got lucky and found a lot of +wisdom and +int gear. all +1 but 1 Wisdom gives 9 mana on Shaman. It helps a lot.

[Underprivileged White Male]

Originally posted by Tyvolus:

Originally posted by Tanist:

EQ was never a gear treadmill to be honest. You would gain items over the course of the levels 1-50 and it was not uncommon to still be wearing some items you picked up in the early levels.

Sure there was always the goal of trying to find better, but it isn't like modern MMOs where every level was a new gear set.

That said, I would say Pantheon has a stronger leaning to modern vs traditional on this front, but not a major "linear" progression in power, more an "expanding" of stats as you level.

For instance, in the first 1-10 range, you will get items with a single +1 stat and can fill out a full set of gear in this manner with group based items having more stats to them (ie +1 str +1 sta +resist, etc...). By 15-20 solo mobs are dropping new set upgrades that all have 2 sets of stats on them and the group gear continues to have more and occasionally higher +2, etc...)

So far, this seems to be the progression and I would assume by level 50, gear would be in the +5 range... maybe with the items having multiple bonuses to multiple stats and effects.

I don't think they want to follow the route of massive increases (they really don't need to as that is just a visual for players and really has nothing to do with the background improvements).

Point is, the modern gear treadmill isn't likely to be a focus, and as I see it now, while not as slow as EQ, it certainly isn't anywhere near as it is in games today. The point of play will be more looking for upgrades which with the rare system will be a goal, not the constant changing out of new gear with each level.

whilst I shall concede EQ was nowhere near the out of control gear treadmill of modern MMOs, it was still a huge part of the game. EQ had 2 core tenents of gameplay, you earned XP, and got loot. Loot was the game. granted not to the extent where in modern MMOs, you get a great piece of gear in the morning, and when you log off in the afternoon its already outdated

No you really didn't. Classic EQ loot was mostly non existent. By level 20 you were still wearing mostly statless pieces of misc AC armor. You weren't even really looking to start camping drops with stats until around 20+. There were a few things at the end of Crushbone/Black Burrow/Befallen but it wasn't really until you first started dipping your toes into Mistmoore/Unrest/the higher parts of Upper Guk that you really started seeing much of anything.

Heck you barely even had coin before then. Melee barely had coin due to equipping about everything they found, and casters spent every dime just getting "some" of their spells.

[Tanist]

Originally posted by Underprivileged White Male:

Originally posted by Tyvolus:

whilst I shall concede EQ was nowhere near the out of control gear treadmill of modern MMOs, it was still a huge part of the game. EQ had 2 core tenents of gameplay, you earned XP, and got loot. Loot was the game. granted not to the extent where in modern MMOs, you get a great piece of gear in the morning, and when you log off in the afternoon its already outdated

No you really didn't. Classic EQ loot was mostly non existent. By level 20 you were still wearing mostly statless pieces of misc AC armor. You weren't even really looking to start camping drops with stats until around 20+. There were a few things at the end of Crushbone/Black Burrow/Befallen but it wasn't really until you first started dipping your toes into Mistmoore/Unrest/the higher parts of Upper Guk that you really started seeing much of anything.

Heck you barely even had coin before then. Melee barely had coin due to equipping about everything they found, and casters spent every dime just getting "some" of their spells.

yeah, as a monk I wore cured silk that I made in my 1-10's and pretty much wore that way up into the 40's with only the "occasional" piece here and there.

After EQ was out for several years, had fleshed out new expansions, new starting areas, etc... then you started to see early levels being able to gather a bunch of gear in the lowbie ranges.

[MugHug]

Originally posted by Enferno:

Keep in mind that when EQ launched back in 1999 (the game they're inspired by) didn't have very many items with + stats either. 99% of the items were nothing but plain AC. Until you got strong enough to raid Nagafen and Lady Vox, then later they added Plane of Fear. Outside of those, they had very little items that had + to stats and the ones that did only had +1 to a specific stat and +5 hp.

Now EQ has items with +10k hp / +500 stats / resists / etc... insane compared to launch. So, keep that in mind.

Extremely valid point.

[bluebrown]

Originally posted by HammerHand:

Originally posted by Keenfire:

Let's do a hypothetical:
+1 on a stat that you only have 8 of is a 12.5% increase. That's substantial. The first person to respond to the op linked a necklace that had +3 stat... or 35.5% increase.

100% this. At level 5-10 in Wilds End I got lucky and found a lot of +wisdom and +int gear. all +1 but 1 Wisdom gives 9 mana on Shaman. It helps a lot.

One wisdom doesn't give flat 9 mp. Stats appear to be coefficients where the character level is somehow involved in the formula.

That is the same reason why the line of thinking 12.5% increase or 35.5% increase isn't very useful, in order to know if and by what order your character is actually getting more powerful from those stats.

I don't know the exact formula but I created a few shamans with different stats in order to compare them

lvl	st	hp	wis	mp
1	5	24	8	30
1	6	27	9	32
1	7	29	10	35
5	5	45	11	74
5	6	50	11	74
5	8	59	11	74
5	9	64	12	79
5	9	64	13	84

I am not able to infer the exact formula from this limited data. There are a few interesting observation though.

• Characters get some amount of hp/mp for each level, without having to increase stats.
  
  
• It appears that 1 stat point translates into more hp and mp respectively, as the character level increases. At level 1, this is 2-3 hp/mp per stat point whereas at level 5 its closer to 5 mp/hp per stat point.
  
  
• The benefit from a singular stat point is marginal. At least in these level ranges, For example, in terms of MP, you can cast 0 additional spells at level 1. Whereas you might be able to cast 1 additional spell at level 5. Depending on the spells mana cost. So. while it might be a raw 12.5% stat increase, it wont affect combat in a substantial way.

I have not tested this in terms of damage output. I don't even know if stats increase spell damage. But if they do, it is likely also not a 100% coefficient.

[2engies1dispenser]

From my perspective, it is boring not because of the smaller #'s on the items, but because of the game design, nothing but +int gear matters for mage casters. You need each desperate bit of +mana and +crit, mostly crit. And only one of my abilities even says it scales with int.

Str, I'll take secondary on the hopes it adds to my melee dmg and maybe a1 a bit. And because my trait seller lists it, so maybe there is a hidden bonus not shown in game.

Sta, pointless so far. Most group mobs feel more binary, either get crit 1 shot from something not interrupted or you live. Tiny bit of extra hp not going to help me solo.

Con, pointless so far

Agi, I actually have seen the odd dodge proc soloing, but pointless in group. Elites don't seem to miss casters at least.

Dex, ehh, I look for it secondary if I have to, supposedly helps a tiny bit with resists.Also ups my melee hit and crit which I do a lot of melee weaving.

Int, tiny bit more mana, +tiny bit of crit. The mana is mostly to keep parity since they keep massively jacking up the cost of level up spells

Wis, ehh, secondary if it comes with for tiny bit of crit

Cha, pointless.

So until I learn or find out differently, for me, it's Int >>>>>dex>str=wis>>>>>rest

For melee/ranged dmg, it's probably dex >all, str secondary.
Tanks, not sure, but probably dex/str>all since it seems mostly about the heals as mitigation more than anything. And most of the best warriors I play with are dw along with dire and paladins are 2 handing.

However, with the alpha status, stats on gear I'm most lenient on opinion wise. But everyone I iknow is bummed when a cloth drops without int.

Oh, and the fact that I can't find an Int staff yet, which sucks since damage of your alt abilities is tied to weapon dmg. :(

[Naked Granny]

Originally posted by Ol' Crispy:

Can anyone give me some examples of gear to be excited about? I'm a main necromancer and gearing seems to mean almost nothing except weapon damage influencing my Induce Nausea heavily (same with wizards A+1 ability).

+1 intelligence seems negligible and it seems to be all about character level relative to mob level.

What's the difference between +1 and +1,000 if the equation under the hood had a coefficient of 0.001 multiplied against the 1,000? What if the +1 gets multiplied by 1,000 by that same equation?

The size of numbers is only meaningful relative to the effect.

But for a bit of historical context, Pantheon is a game intentionally and profoundly inspired by Everquest 1 which was also a game which the late Brad McQuaid helped create - and which launched the MMO genre into existence (technically UO was first by a few months but it never had the popularity or cultural influence). In EQ1, your stats get multiplied by your level and other factors to determine their effect in various ways. What this mostly meant in practice was that player stats were more like a proportional multiplier than they were an absolute bonus. So +1 stamina might not sound like a lot, especially early in the game when it's maybe only one hit point or whatever. But later in the game, it's not just one hit point, it's more like 1% of your hit points... so the difference between someone with +100 stamina and +5 stamina was more like 1.95 **times** the hit points of the character. If that makes sense.

In this cartoon example, you can see that if you have twenty equipment slots into which you can put gear, and if they all have stamina on them, each individual piece might not seem impressive... but even if they only have +1 on each of them, suddenly you're talking about a character with 20% more hp than they would otherwise have. You see?

So, to carry the cartoon example further, if you had one piece of gear with +20 stamina, that would be as much as an entire equipment set which a lower level character could gather in starter zones.

How much impact should equipment have? Is doubling your health pool significant? Is multiplying your hit points by a billion significant? Well it turns out that by learning from the cartoon above, you have discovered that what you really want to know isn't how big the numbers should be, but rather - how far ahead should your investment take you compared to someone who doesn't invest? Or, to put it another way, how much should someone who doesn't invest be able to contribute to that part of the game?

If numbers get huge, then people who don't invest in that can't participate in that area at all. If the numbers are kept smaller, then the difference can still be noticeable without completely excluding 9/10ths of the characters in the game.

Hope that helps.