Level 20+

[Flüüüümpel]

There was a discussion about a week ago about the fact that some classes with LVL 20 are more or less hitting a wall. I can't say anything about it myself, but I'm curious and would like to hear what your experiences are with it. Because there are definitely a lot more people who have reached the level now than a week ago

Edit : Thanks to everyone who has answered and will answer in the future, again I don't want to trigger a balance discussion or anything like that, I think there is and was enough of it. I just want to collect information that I personally think is interesting

Edit 2 : I opened this topic in the hope that people who are currently in this level will describe their experiences (whether solo or in groups). So that others who may have problems in this Level-area may be able to find information here that will help them.
This isn't primarily about the discussion of whether solo play should remain playable or not, although everyone who contributes here is welcome to add their opinion. It's more about finding out which classes have more difficulty with it and in the best case scenario they can help each other with tips. That was my idea behind it...

[Tanist]

I tried a couple 20+ mobs at 18. I was able to still solo them, but it was very slow. This was a DL (scorpions). I will give you some more response as I get up past that (currently have a DL and Shammy nearing that level).

I wouldn't be surprised though if they are following EQ to any extent in that design. For the most part, most classes could do ok slowing down by 20 in being able to solo which led to more people grouping.

I hope it slows down though, 1-20 is so fast people will be max level far too quickly for them to keep up with content if this pace continues.

My guess (and hope) is that the early game is just for people to get a feel for the classes, flesh out progression with some gear, trades, etc... and the 20+ game will slow down a lot and follow a more even progression similar to EQ and the like.

I would think then that many toe to toe classes would taper off in easy soloing, requiring healing or various tricks while some casters will have to heavily rely on kiting and tricks to take down mobs which will increase downtime between slowing progression.

I think that was my concern with how fast the 1-20 game was that people would get used to this fast paced no downtime progression and expect the rest of the game to follow suit, then hitting that "wall" as you mentioned only to get frustrated because they have become accustomed to that faster pace play.

Maybe they have some solution for this problem outside of the slow down and soloing starting to taper off, but something has to balance this or it will cause issues I think in terms of content consumption rate.

[JP]

I'm 136 hours into playing and reached 20. My play time has been dropping off considerably over the last week or so. There is a small work aspect to this but largely feel I'm at the point where I can see there is clearly work to do for the devs.

I've absolutely loved my time playing and will continue to follow developments closely and have a vested interest in the game. The foundations are rock solid and have confidence they will nail it for full launch but I personally feel there is a clear drop off in quality from 1-15 to 15+. The Orcs have been thrown in to fill a gap and it feels that way but I totally understand the need to do so.

[Flüüüümpel]

Originally posted by JP:

I'm 136 hours into playing and reached 20. My play time has been dropping off considerably over the last week or so. There is a small work aspect to this but largely feel I'm at the point where I can see there is clearly work to do for the devs.

I've absolutely loved my time playing and will continue to follow developments closely and have a vested interest in the game. The foundations are rock solid and have confidence they will nail it for full launch but I personally feel there is a clear drop off in quality from 1-15 to 15+. The Orcs have been thrown in to fill a gap and it feels that way but I totally understand the need to do so.

May I ask which class/classes you played? That could be very interesting, although I don't want to start a balance discussion. Current possible inconsistencies and also deliberate differences are to be expected, and it seems only logical that they probably still has to work on them.

For my part, I can only comment on the Paladin and the Dire Lord at 14 and 15 respectively. All the other classes that I have tried are simply too low to judge. I would still describe them as working absolutely well. Both in their own way and both are better at different tasks.

[Flüüüümpel]

Originally posted by Tanist:

I tried a couple 20+ mobs at 18. I was able to still solo them, but it was very slow. This was a DL (scorpions). I will give you some more response as I get up past that (currently have a DL and Shammy nearing that level).

I wouldn't be surprised though if they are following EQ to any extent in that design. For the most part, most classes could do ok slowing down by 20 in being able to solo which led to more people grouping.

I hope it slows down though, 1-20 is so fast people will be max level far too quickly for them to keep up with content if this pace continues.

My guess (and hope) is that the early game is just for people to get a feel for the classes, flesh out progression with some gear, trades, etc... and the 20+ game will slow down a lot and follow a more even progression similar to EQ and the like.

I would think then that many toe to toe classes would taper off in easy soloing, requiring healing or various tricks while some casters will have to heavily rely on kiting and tricks to take down mobs which will increase downtime between slowing progression.

I think that was my concern with how fast the 1-20 game was that people would get used to this fast paced no downtime progression and expect the rest of the game to follow suit, then hitting that "wall" as you mentioned only to get frustrated because they have become accustomed to that faster pace play.

Maybe they have some solution for this problem outside of the slow down and soloing starting to taper off, but something has to balance this or it will cause issues I think in terms of content consumption rate.

In your case, I would of course be particularly interested in the Shammy because I play a DIre Lord myself and can form my own opinion.

[JP]

Originally posted by Flüüüümpel:

Originally posted by JP:

I'm 136 hours into playing and reached 20. My play time has been dropping off considerably over the last week or so. There is a small work aspect to this but largely feel I'm at the point where I can see there is clearly work to do for the devs.

I've absolutely loved my time playing and will continue to follow developments closely and have a vested interest in the game. The foundations are rock solid and have confidence they will nail it for full launch but I personally feel there is a clear drop off in quality from 1-15 to 15+. The Orcs have been thrown in to fill a gap and it feels that way but I totally understand the need to do so.

May I ask which class/classes you played? That could be very interesting, although I don't want to start a balance discussion. Current possible inconsistencies and also deliberate differences are to be expected, and it seems only logical that they probably still has to work on them.

For my part, I can only comment on the Paladin and the Dire Lord at 14 and 15 respectively. All the other classes that I have tried are simply too low to judge. I would still describe them as working absolutely well. Both in their own way and both are better at different tasks.

I only played a Ranger and not somebody who normally has alts or other characters. I always invest in my 1 character as I did in EQ and WoW. I have absolutely no issues with the Ranger, it feels good to play, offers solid options for a group in terms of interrupts and very good damage, whilst being able to solo also.

[Qual44]

I have a 20 shammy and started rolling alts. The shaman gets no addition damage spells after 20 or a new pet, just heals, 50% res, and slow. It seems like the class is not fully completed. I havent found an area outside the orcs to solo yet, just a few scattered scorpions in EP

[Flüüüümpel]

Originally posted by Qual44:

I have a 20 shammy and started rolling alts. The shaman gets no addition damage spells after 20 or a new pet, just heals, 50% res, and slow. It seems like the class is not fully completed. I havent found an area outside the orcs to solo yet, just a few scattered scorpions in EP

So you could say that only the Shammy's support abilities are getting improvements? This would Support Tanist's theory that solo play is no longer easily possible from LvL 20+, at least for most classes

[Skankinpig]

Originally posted by Flüüüümpel:

Originally posted by Qual44:

I have a 20 shammy and started rolling alts. The shaman gets no addition damage spells after 20 or a new pet, just heals, 50% res, and slow. It seems like the class is not fully completed. I havent found an area outside the orcs to solo yet, just a few scattered scorpions in EP

So you could say that only the Shammy's support abilities are getting improvements? This would Support Tanist's theory that solo play is no longer easily possible from LvL 20+, at least for most classes

It points toward it for sure, but everything is so unfinished it's best to not take too much out of it. My suspicion is it's correct though.

My shaman is 15 at the moment, and it's the only class i've levelled - soloing is still fine at this point, but even now it's not quite as good as a few levels previously.

[Carog the Fat]

i am a 24 rogue and still have loads to do, but i only solo to gather stuff exp is done in groups, tonight we go to mad run to kill the orphan brood watcher.

At 20-22 go to Halnir's cave and do ghost then get a level in fort to 23 for a chnage of pace then go deep in HC and start killing named or into madrun, after that in it is in to the frozen lands.

The solo experience is probably very different, I havent looked at silent plains maybe that fills a gap between 25- 30.

[Flüüüümpel]

Originally posted by Carog the Fat:

i am a 24 rogue and still have loads to do, but i only solo to gather stuff exp is done in groups, tonight we go to mad run to kill the orphan brood watcher.

At 20-22 go to Halnir's cave and do ghost then get a level in fort to 23 for a chnage of pace then go deep in HC and start killing named or into madrun, after that in it is in to the frozen lands.

The solo experience is probably very different, I havent looked at silent plains maybe that fills a gap between 25- 30.

Awesome, thanks for the information. Especially since it concerns a new class again :)

[Tanist]

Originally posted by Flüüüümpel:

Originally posted by Qual44:

I have a 20 shammy and started rolling alts. The shaman gets no addition damage spells after 20 or a new pet, just heals, 50% res, and slow. It seems like the class is not fully completed. I havent found an area outside the orcs to solo yet, just a few scattered scorpions in EP

So you could say that only the Shammy's support abilities are getting improvements? This would Support Tanist's theory that solo play is no longer easily possible from LvL 20+, at least for most classes

Tactics might have to change for the shaman.

Currently (18) I can still pretty much just tank the mob and my heals take care of things but I am seeing this may be an issue at higher levels.

I have been toying with a different approach doing kiting instead. I think it is a practical approach if you use the Windstrider (running buff) combined with Walk of Ages (teleport spell). Basically, you dot the mob up (pull with slow, maybe defense debuff as well) and balance using sprint to stay ahead of the mob (avoiding exhaustion) and then work in a teleport to gain distance at times. With your pet being a melee dot, it works pretty well.

I haven't tried it 20+, but it seems like this will change the pace of play, making it fall more in line with how EQ was with kiting where you would pick an optimal exp level mob, then kite it till it died. Usually this took a good portion of your mana, so you would sit and med, then repeat. The exp progression was very slow, but... it was progression at the "optimal" return for a mobs exp.

How well a player does is just like it is now with play in that you will have to maximize your mana/damage ratio over time in the encounter. It takes longer, but if done right it will produce a return allowing you to continue exping at a fair rate.

I think this will happen with most classes where the damage mobs do get too excessive, and the trick will be trying to manage mana to be able to take down a mob, which may be a problem if mob HP outpaces spell damage/mana ratio. This may just be an issue of time (ie letting pet damage do more of the work and using dots that give the best damage/mana return rather than loading up everything).

Unless they provide certain tools to continue this process for every class, this is where like I said, I think some classes will drop off from being able to solo as much (maybe having to resort to light blues and greens eventually) and some may hit a wall where it just isn't practical at all, or maybe at least until a certain mob type of level range where they get a new spel/ability upgrade that gives them a boost).

In this, that definitely would be like EQ. Melee dropped off pretty quickly in EQ in this (with only certain gear giving them some ability to solo) and the hybrid melee depended on their style. If they were straight tank and heal, this didn't do as well (ie pally), but if they had kiting tools (ie SK fear kiting) they did fairly well.

In the end though, only certain kiting classes were able to consistently solo after a while, so I think this "may" be the case, but I guess it depends on how they want classes to be throughout the levels concerning soloing.

I played a monk in EQ and I pulled every trick I could out of the book to solo, but at around 35 I gave up and focused entirely on grouping.

[thanoskulo]

I dunno I suspect they will go the eq2 route and I say this because they have solo and elite mobs in the game as eq2 did so you should be able to solo to max lvl
The problem that stops you from being able to do so now is that the classes are in an unfinished state and there are very few solo spots in the 20+ range
Both of those problems are content based and can be solved if there is a will to do so

[Luckycharms]

Originally posted by Tanist:

Originally posted by Flüüüümpel:

So you could say that only the Shammy's support abilities are getting improvements? This would Support Tanist's theory that solo play is no longer easily possible from LvL 20+, at least for most classes

Tactics might have to change for the shaman.

Currently (18) I can still pretty much just tank the mob and my heals take care of things but I am seeing this may be an issue at higher levels.

I have been toying with a different approach doing kiting instead. I think it is a practical approach if you use the Windstrider (running buff) combined with Walk of Ages (teleport spell). Basically, you dot the mob up (pull with slow, maybe defense debuff as well) and balance using sprint to stay ahead of the mob (avoiding exhaustion) and then work in a teleport to gain distance at times. With your pet being a melee dot, it works pretty well.

I haven't tried it 20+, but it seems like this will change the pace of play, making it fall more in line with how EQ was with kiting where you would pick an optimal exp level mob, then kite it till it died. Usually this took a good portion of your mana, so you would sit and med, then repeat. The exp progression was very slow, but... it was progression at the "optimal" return for a mobs exp.

How well a player does is just like it is now with play in that you will have to maximize your mana/damage ratio over time in the encounter. It takes longer, but if done right it will produce a return allowing you to continue exping at a fair rate.

I think this will happen with most classes where the damage mobs do get too excessive, and the trick will be trying to manage mana to be able to take down a mob, which may be a problem if mob HP outpaces spell damage/mana ratio. This may just be an issue of time (ie letting pet damage do more of the work and using dots that give the best damage/mana return rather than loading up everything).

Unless they provide certain tools to continue this process for every class, this is where like I said, I think some classes will drop off from being able to solo as much (maybe having to resort to light blues and greens eventually) and some may hit a wall where it just isn't practical at all, or maybe at least until a certain mob type of level range where they get a new spel/ability upgrade that gives them a boost).

In this, that definitely would be like EQ. Melee dropped off pretty quickly in EQ in this (with only certain gear giving them some ability to solo) and the hybrid melee depended on their style. If they were straight tank and heal, this didn't do as well (ie pally), but if they had kiting tools (ie SK fear kiting) they did fairly well.

In the end though, only certain kiting classes were able to consistently solo after a while, so I think this "may" be the case, but I guess it depends on how they want classes to be throughout the levels concerning soloing.

I played a monk in EQ and I pulled every trick I could out of the book to solo, but at around 35 I gave up and focused entirely on grouping.

As I hit 20 with my ranger I've noticed this problem creeping in for alot of my friends playing different classes as they started to hit lvl 20. Now I don't know if this is planned or just the way stands as it is in EA, but the ability to solo seems to depend more on what kind of mob your fighting rather than your class. I am out in eastern plains right now and some of the animals mobs are far far far far far easier to kill than some of their even lower level counterparts. This makes soloing as almost any class very doable, until you end up fighting one of the mobs that can actually fight.

Its still to early to tell if this is a design decision or just the state of an EA game. There also seems to be many many many abilities missing from most classes around lvl 20 as well not helping anyone solo.

It seems clear to me that there is a large content gap that is the mid game as things currently stand and making a call on who can solo or if they can solo is premature, IMO. I do hope that all classes in the end will be able to solo to some degree, as I don't think it would fair to only some classes viable to solo as. I know that in EQ this wasn't true, but this isn't EQ so I can hope that will change. I want to add in here that I do believe not all classes should be able to solo to the same degree. Some classes should foundamentaly be better at soloing than others, sorry clerics but you knew what you were getting into, but they should still have the ability to solo at least light blues or even the lower end blues.

I say this because in a grind heavy game like this, not everyone can be on long enough constantly enough to level in groups. So by removing a way that they can level up on their own time and still be able to group with their friends, seems mean and against ideas of a video game meant to be socially played with others especially friends and guildies.

Now maybe this could be achieved by making sure that there are mobs that all classes can solo, I.E. undead mobs that clerics can nuke down solo or slower mobs that classes with a snare can solo. It doesn't have to be everywhere at all places all the time, but they should have the option to solo if that is what they want because at the end of the day this is a video game meant to be enjoyed and removing an avenue of a enjoyment for no real reason other than EQ did it that way seems like a terrible design and business decision.

TLDR I hope that in the end being able to solo as any class will be a viable option but one that should be easier or harder depending on the class you decided to play as.

[Flüüüümpel]

Originally posted by Luckycharms:

Originally posted by Tanist:

Tactics might have to change for the shaman.

Currently (18) I can still pretty much just tank the mob and my heals take care of things but I am seeing this may be an issue at higher levels.

I have been toying with a different approach doing kiting instead. I think it is a practical approach if you use the Windstrider (running buff) combined with Walk of Ages (teleport spell). Basically, you dot the mob up (pull with slow, maybe defense debuff as well) and balance using sprint to stay ahead of the mob (avoiding exhaustion) and then work in a teleport to gain distance at times. With your pet being a melee dot, it works pretty well.

I haven't tried it 20+, but it seems like this will change the pace of play, making it fall more in line with how EQ was with kiting where you would pick an optimal exp level mob, then kite it till it died. Usually this took a good portion of your mana, so you would sit and med, then repeat. The exp progression was very slow, but... it was progression at the "optimal" return for a mobs exp.

How well a player does is just like it is now with play in that you will have to maximize your mana/damage ratio over time in the encounter. It takes longer, but if done right it will produce a return allowing you to continue exping at a fair rate.

I think this will happen with most classes where the damage mobs do get too excessive, and the trick will be trying to manage mana to be able to take down a mob, which may be a problem if mob HP outpaces spell damage/mana ratio. This may just be an issue of time (ie letting pet damage do more of the work and using dots that give the best damage/mana return rather than loading up everything).

Unless they provide certain tools to continue this process for every class, this is where like I said, I think some classes will drop off from being able to solo as much (maybe having to resort to light blues and greens eventually) and some may hit a wall where it just isn't practical at all, or maybe at least until a certain mob type of level range where they get a new spel/ability upgrade that gives them a boost).

In this, that definitely would be like EQ. Melee dropped off pretty quickly in EQ in this (with only certain gear giving them some ability to solo) and the hybrid melee depended on their style. If they were straight tank and heal, this didn't do as well (ie pally), but if they had kiting tools (ie SK fear kiting) they did fairly well.

In the end though, only certain kiting classes were able to consistently solo after a while, so I think this "may" be the case, but I guess it depends on how they want classes to be throughout the levels concerning soloing.

I played a monk in EQ and I pulled every trick I could out of the book to solo, but at around 35 I gave up and focused entirely on grouping.

As I hit 20 with my ranger I've noticed this problem creeping in for alot of my friends playing different classes as they started to hit lvl 20. Now I don't know if this is planned or just the way stands as it is in EA, but the ability to solo seems to depend more on what kind of mob your fighting rather than your class. I am out in eastern plains right now and some of the animals mobs are far far far far far easier to kill than some of their even lower level counterparts. This makes soloing as almost any class very doable, until you end up fighting one of the mobs that can actually fight.

Its still to early to tell if this is a design decision or just the state of an EA game. There also seems to be many many many abilities missing from most classes around lvl 20 as well not helping anyone solo.

It seems clear to me that there is a large content gap that is the mid game as things currently stand and making a call on who can solo or if they can solo is premature, IMO. I do hope that all classes in the end will be able to solo to some degree, as I don't think it would fair to only some classes viable to solo as. I know that in EQ this wasn't true, but this isn't EQ so I can hope that will change. I want to add in here that I do believe not all classes should be able to solo to the same degree. Some classes should foundamentaly be better at soloing than others, sorry clerics but you knew what you were getting into, but they should still have the ability to solo at least light blues or even the lower end blues.

I say this because in a grind heavy game like this, not everyone can be on long enough constantly enough to level in groups. So by removing a way that they can level up on their own time and still be able to group with their friends, seems mean and against ideas of a video game meant to be socially played with others especially friends and guildies.

Now maybe this could be achieved by making sure that there are mobs that all classes can solo, I.E. undead mobs that clerics can nuke down solo or slower mobs that classes with a snare can solo. It doesn't have to be everywhere at all places all the time, but they should have the option to solo if that is what they want because at the end of the day this is a video game meant to be enjoyed and removing an avenue of a enjoyment for no real reason other than EQ did it that way seems like a terrible design and business decision.

TLDR I hope that in the end being able to solo as any class will be a viable option but one that should be easier or harder depending on the class you decided to play as.

Thanks :) Again, exactly what I'm looking for in terms of information. I know the things described here can change with every patch, it's also more about gathering a few tips and information for myself and maybe for others who get there in the next few days.

[Luckycharms]

Oh yea no problem. I love this game and what to see it improve and help the community grow and support each other. That's one of my favorite parts of this game is the excellent and nice community, I think I only had to pay for a new item once, since most people just give them to me when I get excited by how much of an upgrade the new item is lol.

If you have any others questions or stuff put em up and get some answers. It would be great if you could take the notes and tips you gather and make a guide for the game. That would probably help out a ton of new players get into this game.