Do rally cars uses ABS?

[Mangostain]

Real rally cars from the game use ABS system? I want the real settings option in preference, not most challenging preferences... thanks

[69th_Zeb]

Opprinnelig skrevet av dad marley:

2 things to add here...
ABS originated from aircraft because they needed to do ~200 km/h to 0 braking without fail every single landing. It's not from automibile. Also nitrous oxide injection (da NOS!) originated from aircraft FYI.

Yes, noob pilots tend to land brakes on. The neener-neeners don't have it though, so they get flat spots. :)
I have worked on old warbirds and new planes and have never heard of NOS being used. That would be pretty dangerous! I guess the racing guys at Reno might. The only stuff I'm familiar with is water/ethanol injection to increase air density.

Back on track, I really dislike ABS on snow when the ice is really bad...such as wet ice just above freezing. I can get just a bit more out of my braking without it, because the ABS cycling breaks friction every time it re-engages pressure. You also loose the tactile feel of the surface at that point and it becomes a guessing game. I would think they'd rather not have it.

[kazereal]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Zlu:

Funny things is that all of these techs like ABS, ESP, etc... were first introduced in racing cars.

ABS actually originates from aircraft since it can be easy to lock tires and that will cause pretty devastating results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW7znizsUEw

[kazereal]

By the way, ABS in cars is to help keep them steerable under braking, this is sometimes at the cost of increased braking distance comparing to carefully adjusting braking power.

On loose surfaces like gravel it can help to lock-up tires so they build-up "barrier" of sorts in front of tire to help stop sooner.

[Mukatahren]

It was tricky to separate the speculation form the facts in this thread, but I came away enjoying both sides of the discussion, for some strange reason.

[BluesyMoo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM-1 - The WWII German nitrous for high altitude which both cools the air and provides more oxygen.

It seems really hard to figure out what exact assists were used on what cars, if any. One thing about sims is, they're supposed to simulate the damn things and tell us which assists should exist where. It should be the dev's job to obtain that information and make things as correct as they can in the game. I'd want an F-14 simulator to tell me I can track 24 targets and not 25. That's the value of a sim.

[jason]

ABS is generally a disadvantage in a race car since optimal braking grip occurs when the wheels are spinning more slowly than they should be for the car's speed. It's pretty similar to how maximum lateral grip on tarmac occurs when a car is sliding by a few degrees.

[69th_Zeb]

Opprinnelig skrevet av dad marley:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM-1 - The WWII German nitrous for high altitude which both cools the air and provides more oxygen.

Very interesting read! Also thought it interesting that they were developing a variable flow system that auto-enriched with air density and other inputs (much like a turbine fuel control actually).

Not sure if we managed to answer Mango's question. haha. I know that people rally just about anything, but for WRC, they changed the homologation rules after 2004-ish to make the cars basic again. They removed options like paddle shifters, launch control, ABS, etc. Any other takes?

[BluesyMoo]

Opprinnelig skrevet av jason moyer:

ABS is generally a disadvantage in a race car since optimal braking grip occurs when the wheels are spinning more slowly than they should be for the car's speed. It's pretty similar to how maximum lateral grip on tarmac occurs when a car is sliding by a few degrees.

I'm afraid that's a bit of misconception. The first thing is, all tires slip somewhat when providing any grip, not just cornering hard or optimally braking - *any* braking occurs when wheels are spinning more slowly. So yes, the ABS would allow the tires to slip, otherwise there's 0 braking, and any car cornering at any speed *is* slipping.

Then please see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Use. By ensuring that the wheels are braking and none of them sees abrupt deceleration, the system provides maximum braking to the car, at least ideally. The exceptions would be if the system has too much lag in the loop or the operating frequency is too low. Another exception would be that you want to dig up the loose surface material to reach the lower hard material. But the fact that ABS would be optimal in some conditions means that ABS is not generally a disadvantage in racing cars. It's only a disadvantage is some exceptional cases.

[BluesyMoo]

Opprinnelig skrevet av zeb:

Not sure if we managed to answer Mango's question. haha. I know that people rally just about anything, but for WRC, they changed the homologation rules after 2004-ish to make the cars basic again. They removed options like paddle shifters, launch control, ABS, etc. Any other takes?

Whaaa no paddles? I've been shifting wrong for so long...

[Appy]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Sämi Nivunen:

"Any electronic driving aid system is prohibited (ABS / ASR /
EPS…).
Only the homologated electronic control unit (ECU) and
actuators may be used." -Article 255A (2015) - Specific Regulations for WRC - published on 19.12.2014

Even with the ABS off the cars' braking power is incredible in this game.

"In the case of a car fitted with servo‐assisted brakes, this device
may be disconnected, removed or replaced with the kit
homologated in Option Variant (VO). The same applies for anti‐lock
braking systems.
If the anti‐lock braking system (ABS) is disconnected or removed,
the use of one or more mechanical rear braking distributor(s)
homologated by the manufacturer in the WRC Option Variant is
authorised."

*..replaced with the kit homologated in Option variant. The same applies to anti-lock braking systems..*

What does this mean?

[Appy]

Opprinnelig skrevet av dad marley:

Opprinnelig skrevet av jason moyer:

ABS is generally a disadvantage in a race car since optimal braking grip occurs when the wheels are spinning more slowly than they should be for the car's speed. It's pretty similar to how maximum lateral grip on tarmac occurs when a car is sliding by a few degrees.

I'm afraid that's a bit of misconception. The first thing is, all tires slip somewhat when providing any grip, not just cornering hard or optimally braking - *any* braking occurs when wheels are spinning more slowly. So yes, the ABS would allow the tires to slip, otherwise there's 0 braking, and any car cornering at any speed *is* slipping.

Then please see this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-lock_braking_system#Use. By ensuring that the wheels are braking and none of them sees abrupt deceleration, the system provides maximum braking to the car, at least ideally. The exceptions would be if the system has too much lag in the loop or the operating frequency is too low. Another exception would be that you want to dig up the loose surface material to reach the lower hard material. But the fact that ABS would be optimal in some conditions means that ABS is not generally a disadvantage in racing cars. It's only a disadvantage is some exceptional cases.

Yes and No

Actually if you see a wheel under braking with ABS turned on under a high speed camera, you can clearly see that the wheel locks, and detecting a wheel lock the abs kicks in and releases the brake, and as soon as wheel is rolling again, and the driver has still kept the brake pedal pressed in the wheel locks again and abs kicks in again and so on..this happens maybe several times a second i dont know the exact figures..

This means that there are actually intervals of time when braking with ABS on, when the wheels are locked..because in reality, ABS kicks in only when wheel locks..so wheels have locked up means that the friction generated by the tires are not sufficient during these small intervals of time( I dont know if you know this are not..when wheels are rolling, there is kinetic friction which is faaaaar faaaar higher than the static friction that it gets converted into, once the wheels are locked up and the car is still moving----which implies that stopping power is more when wheels are rolling cuz you know more the friction, more the rate of deceleration)

All means that the car is not slowing down at its maximal potential when the wheels are locked up..

So if the surface is even and predictable like dry tarmac, having ABS on is indeed a disadvantage..cuz with threshold braking(which you can learn only by practicing), you apply brakes to an extent that you just dont lock up the wheels..that way you keep the wheels rolling and still slow down..

For unpredictable surfaces, i think having abs is essential to achieve its maximal stopping power because you cant threshold brake four different wheels at four different pressures at the pedals..