I just played Dirt Rally, then Dirt 3, then Dirt 2....

[Oliseo]

What can I say.

I thought I would be good at them after all my Dirt Rally driving. Then I remembered.

I was doing it all wrong. I was doing stupid things like taking my foot of the throttle for right/left 2s and hairpins.

Well, hardly hairpins in all honesty, The track itself was wide enough to fit two buses down, so we would have to have 180 degree turns to actually class as a hairpin.

I kept thinking that my car was about to lose control, and then I remembered there was zero FFB on those games.

Finally I remembered that to win rallies all you needed to do was pick the right car for the track, then pick the right setup for the car, and glue down the throttle and do the online shopping whilst turning the wheel left and right.

In no time at all I was loving the sound of Ken Block patronising me. It was "awesome". Next time I'm going to upload that s*** for the world to see.

In all fairness, I did actually enjoy Dirt 2, and played that for over an hour. It's leagues ahead of Dirt 3, even the graphics are better. Overall it's a more fun arcade game by far. Apart from the "trying to hard to be 'swag''" Ken Block Dirt 2 is actually a fun game, with enjoyable tracks.

And the homage to Colin McCrae was actually tastefully done, and came as a surprise at the time.

As for Dirt 3, thank the stars that Codemasters didn't do another. I went online, briefly, and it was full of ramming halfwits breathing into their mics not saying anything and the background sound of their house.

If you ever feel frustrated with Dirt Rally, or feel "it could be better", may I suggest you go and Play Dirt 3 immediatly after. It put's it into clear perspective.

Don't go play Dirt 2, it's just that little bit too fun to be overly critical about. It's pure cheese, it's pure arcade, but there's something about it...

Go on, try it. The width of the tracks alone will have you in tears of laughter.

Highly recommended, if to see how great Dirt Rally is.


Well done Codies.

[Katzenstreu]

Postat inițial de BWX:

In a lot of ways D3 physics and FFB is more realistic than D Rally actually.. D Rally has some strange idiosyncrasies that are very unrealistic. Yeah D3 braking distance is "arcade-ish", but other than that, the overall feel of the physics is pretty good. Things may happen at an accelerated rate in D3 , but it doesn't feel "wrong" or "broken" in any way like some aspects of the D Rally physics do.

D Rally is more difficult, but not necessarily in a more realistic way. They still need to do a lot of work to D Rally physics before it is anywhere near an accurate "sim", like RBR or something like that.

At least you can pull the hand brake and get the car to react as a car in real life does in a consistent way in D3 (and RBR, and any other good sim), and power slide and/or drift through turns with actual opposite lock in D3.. Some times D Rally physics are just broken. I'm not going to get into too many specifics here, everyone knows what the major issues are.

[...]

It's the same basic game engine anyways.

The way the car physics are in RBR make all CM race games feel like **** compared to it though.


Look how the car actually reacts to the road surface in RBR. It doesn't seem to be locked down to a certain Yaw rate or top speed and it doesn't feel like there are any other artificial limits put on any aspect of the physics engine like D Rally definitely does.

[...]

You'd think they could at least get close to that awesome feel of the car moving around underneath you in 2015.. struggling for grip, and then finding it, reacting to bumps and rocks in a realistic way. RBR just feels "right".. but nope, they didn't even get close in that department - and compared to a game that came out in 2004! I thought by now a rally sim would blow RBR physics away with realism and complexity, but we're not even in the same league these days.

[...]
Car look like it is in molasses from TV cam in D-Rally. it will only ever yaw so fast, and never faster, and that yaw rate is very slow, unrealistically slow.
Also the momentum and speed just feel wrong somehow. I can see it plain as the nose on my face when comparing the above two vids. I suppose there will be people who just have no clue and thinks D Rally is better because pretty gfx or raspy sound. Well, there is more to a rally sim than that, a lot more, and much more important things too, like physics and FFB.


There was a real sense of speed in RBR without limiting the FOV to a narrow sliver like it is in D Rally.. and there seems to be some fakery going on with engine power/ top speed/ uphill/ downhill and torque in D Rally that feels completely faked just to balanced out all the cars in the game- or some other reason known only to CM.

It feels like you are going about 25 MPH in D rally, and you look down at speedo and it says you're doing 80 mph.. It's just off, and in a massive way. In a sim like RBR, you actually have a feeling of momentum and speed.. and the car is not limited in Yaw speed artificially like in D Rally.

If you hit a rock or dip wrong in RBR, your back ends will come around a lot like it would in real life. In D rally, thew YAW seems to be stuck in slow motion, or in a pool of molasses.

It's the same with speed build up. The engine make's a lot more noise and the speedo dial moves, but things are going by the windshield at a reduced rate compared to what they should be. Going up a hill slows all the cars down WAY too much, to the point it feels like the physics engine just cannot cope, so they had to put fake speed limits on the entire game or something.

It's like they are trying to fix some larger underlying problem by slowing everything down artificially. Who knows why they did that. That may be a problem with the physics engine itself. I know one thing, they are never going to fix huge issues like like that in D Rally. They'd probably have to re-write the entire game to fix fundamental problems like that. D3 didn't have those problems anywhere near as bad though, so why is D Rally that is based in the same game and physics engine so messed up? Did they just try to slow the entire physics engine down to make it more "realistic", but then run into all sorts of other issues that needed to be fixed because of that decision? Who knows? We'll never know. It makes no sense though, D Rally should be better than D3 in every conceivable way, and have better physics than RBR- but it is not, and does not.


So yeah I guess I'm not quite as enthusiastic about D Rally physics and FFB as you are. I have better things to compare it to than D3 and D2 though, so that makes sense.

Do you have any examples where the physics are not realistic in DR? Do you have any real world example what it feels like e.g. to pull the handbreak in a rally car on gravel? Other than rbr? Maybe i was not realistic in rbr?
I'm not saying you are wrong and i can't say if they are realistic either as i have not set a foot in a rally car, but maybe criticizing a games physics without any real arguments sounds weird to me :P Also they can still do some tweaks with it. As they have at least one rally driver for feedback available afaik, i believe it cannot be that far away from something realsistic, except for some bugs maybe.

[been S1 4 a minnit]

just did this with dirt 3 as i hadn't played it in awhile. i was already amazed at how much wider and smooth the tracks were. and then i got to monte carlo and i couldn't stop lauging. its like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 4 lane highway in some parts.

[DocStrangelove]

Postat inițial de breendo:

just did this with dirt 3 as i hadn't played it in awhile. i was already amazed at how much wider and smooth the tracks were. and then i got to monte carlo and i couldn't stop lauging. its like a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ 4 lane highway in some parts.

Heh same here, few days ago

[1karl1]

Postat inițial de ♛ⓇⓊⒻⒶ♛:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eb_ehRkleNg

Link to torrent in the description are you ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ serious ?

[CaptainNebulous]

Postat inițial de And The Ghostface Killah:

There are just too many people that confuse RBR with real life now. Dirt Rally is clearly very different feeling then RBR but im not one to say which one is "more real" because just like almost everyone else on these forums I have 0 time spent rallying in real life. This whole "RBR is the standard for rl physics" crap is getting really old. Unless you want to talk friction coefficients and inertia (and im talking about crunching numbers, not speculation) then any such arguement is really just labeling some kind of "subjective realism" and then calling it physics, which is actually a quantifiable science and shouldnt be confused with opinion.

While RBR set a high bar of standards for a Rallying Sim.... playing it today it becomes quickly obvious how outdated that physics engine actually is. And after a decade of no other good Rally games, I think comparing Dirt Rally to RBR is ridiculous. IMHO Dirt Rally is already better in quite a few ways than RBR. And this is coming from a huge RBR fan.

I'm also a sports car racing fan and there hasn't been a realistic sports car racing game in almost a decade.... I still play classics like GTR2 but some day someone will come out with a new sports car racing sim and I'll be all over it without trying to compare it to an aged and no longer relevant game.

[BWX]

Postat inițial de And The Ghostface Killah:

There are just too many people that confuse RBR with real life now. Dirt Rally is clearly very different feeling then RBR but im not one to say which one is "more real" because just like almost everyone else on these forums I have 0 time spent rallying in real life. This whole "RBR is the standard for rl physics" crap is getting really old. Unless you want to talk friction coefficients and inertia (and im talking about crunching numbers, not speculation) then any such arguement is really just labeling some kind of "subjective realism" and then calling it physics, which is actually a quantifiable science and shouldnt be confused with opinion.

Oh please.

RBR is light years ahead of this ego engine physics fakery and dampened arcade style car movements.

You only need to drive an AWD car in the wet, in the snow, in the dirt, and on tarmac one time to see that.

BTW any comparison to the physics in RBR is laughable. RBR feels realistic, makes you feel like you are driving a real car, with real wheels, on a real road- that's why it is good. D Rally can't even begin to compare. Anyone who thinks it does just proves they have very little experience behind the wheel of a real car.

[BWX]

Postat inițial de MattStone:

@BWX

http://youtu.be/vByLmmLqEZE

And yet if you watch this vid you can see that Dirt Rally has the same "sense of speed" as in the RL. Maybe consider that rbr sense of speed was too high and not realistic😙

Yes Dirt Rally has some way to go yet but I think many of the rbr fanboys want the game the same as rbr because that is what the were use to playing...regardless if it's right

I do agree with you about the engine power fakery...there are stages in Greece when I'm sure I'm going down hill but the engine is labouring like I'm going up hill😒

All that video proves is the D Rally physics model is way to stiff, and the car tends to go straight and not yaw and not move enough compared to the real car. The FOV is chopped off in those vids and like looking out of a straw. Worse than even the game already is.

Video proves nothing about "sense of speed" or how messes up the engine torque is in D Rally.


Let's not even talk about how the cars in DR never go straight..

They are always oversteering back ad forth, no matter what you do or how you set it up, on tarmac and dirt.

Even when you have the steering wheel perfectly centered, the back end of car starts moving left or right, even if this motion is very small, it is always there... and then you correct, and it then starts going the other direction. You can set the wheel up to 900 degrees, and if you are 1 degree to the left, the car will start oversteering ever so slightly to left.. The you go one degree right, and same happens to the right. Absolutely terrible physics "bug".

More physics nonsense that does not happen in real life. It doesn't happen in RBR, and it doesn't happen in real life, but it happens in DR. Gees I wonder which model is correct.

Funny thing I have noticed though, that when your car gets damaged, this ridiculous tendency to oversteer slightly in one direction or the other gets magnified more and more, the more your car is damaged, So they did that on purpose, and wrote it into the physics model for a quick way to make damage "affect the car handling"..

Yeah, they add in a terrible handling trait, baked right into the physics model, to every single car on every single surface, and then make it worse and worse as damage on car increases. That is a terrible way to have damage felt on the car, and totally and completely unrealistic, but that appears to be what they have done.

In RBR when you damaged your brake rotor, the FFB would vibrate. When you damaged your front left suspension, it felt like you damaged your front left suspension.


Also one of the guys who is developing the game said yesterday he was playing the game 6 months before release, and he was playing with FFB wheel. He then said that he admits the FFB is messed up, and that is why they "listened to community feedback" and fixed it in a patch.

He also said he had no idea that the FFB was bad when he played the game for 6 months before it was released.

Anyone who cannot tell the FFB was bad from the release version should not be working on a racing game or have any say in physics or handling or FFB, because that person is obviously "FFB deaf". That is to say he has so little experience driving a sim (or a car IRL apparently), that he has no frame of reference, and doesn't know good from bad FFB, or realistic from unrealistic physics.. Obviously.

[BWX]

Postat inițial de Katzenstreu:

Do you have any examples where the physics are not realistic in DR? Do you have any real world example what it feels like e.g. to pull the handbreak in a rally car on gravel? Other than rbr? Maybe i was not realistic in rbr?
I'm not saying you are wrong and i can't say if they are realistic either as i have not set a foot in a rally car, but maybe criticizing a games physics without any real arguments sounds weird to me :P Also they can still do some tweaks with it. As they have at least one rally driver for feedback available afaik, i believe it cannot be that far away from something realistic, except for some bugs maybe.

Yeah I have an Impreza IRL and when I pull the handbrake on a lose surface the rear end slides out and I can precisely control the angle of the drift with subtle steering, throttle, and braking inputs. In DRally, it doesn't react like that at all in any car.

Also on snow or dirt IRL I can induce a nice drift without even pulling the handbrake, just by shifting the weight of the car from the rear to front axle. That is IMPOSSIBLE in D RALLY Impreza.

RBR acts almost exactly how my real AWD car reacts, even at slow speeds.


You have to grab the hand brake for a long time before anything at all happens in D RALLY, and then when it does finally break free, it basically just stops as soon as you let off the handbrake, or else it snaps back violently and unpredictably. You don't have to be a pro rally driver to understand that D Rally physics need a LOT OF WORK.

The physics are completely unrealistic in many ways - my example in the post above about how the car is constantly oversteering slightly even when the wheel is centered is completely wrong. It acts as though a rear suspension link is broken or worn out. Yet when there is any damage to the car in game, that tendency gets worse and worse until the car is very difficult to drive or control. That is the "DR damage model". It is also wrong, incorrect, and completely faked.

[BWX]

BTW I do not think D Rally is a lost cause. I think they could fix a lot of these problems and get the thing acting a lot m,ore like Real Life, and a lot more like RBR.

The problem is, CM probably don't even realize how messed up it is, and probably wouldn't admit it if they did actually know.

It is still early access or whatever, but you can bet your bottom dollar, there will come a time very shortly, when this game receives very little, or no attention any more. And all these youtube vids from CM will stop, and all questions about bugs and problem will go unanswered, and all development comes to a sudden and grinding halt.

Then DR is done, and whatever we get, we get for good, and it won't be fixed.

[DeW']

@ BWX:

I agree with you at some points. Feeling for speed is not realistic at all. But it's still in BETA. Also cars sometimes feels like they waight 50kg and not 500+. Specialy on some jumps. Even with video post from MattStone, you can see that feeling from speed on the left side (specially on curbs) is way better than one on the right side.

Also what I miss in D Rally and I really enjoyed in RBR was live surrounding. People were running from the road, taking pictures and stuff, while in D Rally they are standing like they are standing on the mines and affraid to move.

With new update Ford sounds like someone is strangling neighbors parrot or very simmilar to it (yeah i know how it sounds since i own a cat which did some awful things to neighbors parrot :) ).

[kobeshow]

@BWX:
idk man, the problems you describe, I don't have those. I dont have a wheel so I can't really comment on FFB, but in terms of controllability of the car, no problems after tweaking the setup.
I find default setups undriveable, but after I have tweaked everything to my liking, the cars behave exactly as I want them to.
I would have to agree with you on the damage model though, feels more like script than simulation.

[Meszes]

Every forum has its doomsayers.

[MattStone]

Postat inițial de Meszes:

Every forum has its doomsayers.

yup

[>-FISH-D]

BMX is exactly right people.

All one has to do is drive a tarmac stage in Monaco or Germany to see what DR's physics engine is NOT capable of. Then go drive a sim such as iracing, rfactor2, or Stock Car Extreme to make a quick comparison. Hell, even Forza Motorsports has better tarmac physics than DR. The silk purse out of a pigs ear phrasing is exactly right when it comes to DR's game engine!! Hopefully (and I pray) it can still be somewhat improved though. Luckily gravel is still somewhat fun in DR so that is it's saving grace..

[Memph]

Dirt 3 is a fantastic game, with a stupendously infectious soundtrack.

Granted, I prefer the Rally events to anything else, but it's plenty fast, sleekly presented and it's tonnes of fun. All you gotta do is delete dude-bro's sound files and all the minor, petty annoyances people seem to tally up for it, will all fade away. Take it for what it is, a game, not a simulation. it may not have sim-like FFB and be best on a wheel and so on, but to claim it's plain, simple and takes no skill to master is absolute tripe.

D2 is the one I bounced off, as I didn't like the endless, needless and loud MTV stylings of it all. The whole thing just screamed le wrong generation at me. Loading screens took ages, getting around the menus took ages and it got old faster than I could get into it.