Pikes peak is unplayable!

[MrSp00k]

What is up with the cars in pikes peak? Every single car in both rally and RX feels great in my opinion, but what happened with the monsters of Pikes peak? They are the fastest most powerful cars in the game, but it feels like driving a broken Gokart. The gears are way too short and obviously the driver (using everything els but manual+H-shift+clutch) is to slow changing gears since there is 2 seconds of complete silence and lack of speed between the gears. Too me, it feels like the only playable gears are 5th and 6th, and top speed is the only time you feel that it's really going fast. Or am I the only one thinking this way?

[dodge33cymru]

The gear shifting is indeed a bit strange, but the handling is because of the massive wings; the cars generate massive downforce but they need speed to generate it, which is why they feel better when they're faster; the turbo lag is also something to really need time to get used to.

I think the radically different cars are the issue, and also they were designed for the gravel version more than the tarmac. If you want to have a go before they open up the hill to all cars, I suggest starting with the 'mixed' version sector 3, which is an easier transition. Then try sector 2, which has a bit of tarmac, to get used to the difference, before trying the whole course in one go.

By the way, which car have you been using? The setup can do a lot; I turned the rear diff settings right down on the Audi to make it more manageable, but others can give you better hints.

[d69_inge]

You can adjust the settings, and max out with speed on the gears, and get well over 200 some places. They can be pretty unstable at these speeds, but go for the Audi for stability. When the upgrades are in place after you experience a few events, it is possible to set good times here, but practice a few runs before you get going for real.

[MrSp00k]

I think the handling of the cars is good and just as challenging as it should be. I have no problem getting to the finishline on the full run, but the gears is so annoying that it's not even fun. If you enter a hairpin, flick the car and want the power out of it you will end up with first off a rushing enging on 2nd gear, then complete silence and loosing speed, suddenly without any build up your engine is rushing again... on 3rd. Then there is silence and lack of speed again, followed by a short period of building speed on 4th and then we are rushing, silence and loosing speed again. And by this time, whatever the Km/h says, it feels like your going in about 80 km/h and nothing is working the way you're expecting from a monster like the pikes peak-cars. Just look at the trailblazer from Dirt 2, I loved those cars because it felt like they were fast and powerful and if you had the skill, you could almost fly through the stage. It feels like Pike peak should be atleast in that direction. This is a sim so obviously this version should be a little bit more challenging, but still. Just look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y20CLumT2Sg, the parts where Sebastien is accelerating sounds and looks nothing like it does in Dirt rally, and that's a shame.

[flatdarkmars]

I've obviously never driven a Peugeot 405 T16 up Pikes Peak in real life, but it's hard to imagine that a car with four wheel steering should be as massively understeery as the 405 in the game is. See the short film "Climb Dance" below for a point of comparison.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PZ5J3GLSYI

To be fair, I haven't spent much time playing with the car's setup since unlocking Advanced Setup. If someone has any advice for neutralizing the 405's massive understeer I'd be willing to entertain it.

[69th_Zeb]

Loeb was running a modern gearbox that shifts in milliseconds. The 405 is an old car with a standard clutch.

The speeds are much faster on Pikes so a lot of understeer relative to the other stages is actually appropriate -especially on tarmac.

There are several ways to induce more oversteer in the setup. Will have to try my hand at some.

[Mukatahren]

I find the hill climb cars to be pretty horrible all around. I love DiRT, and I can make good time on the Peak, but the hill climb feels like an arcade game. I've lost interest in it due to the cars.

[69th_Zeb]

Here's my generic setup for the 405.
http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/431572596303272534/4F43648CE6EE050B7960F7AA6B2115732D8B6A6E/

The Pikes road is very fast and wide, so I would think it should feel understeery from the get-go. One can change cornering geometry for making it initially better, but the primary limiting factor is tire grip at speed. If they increased tire grip, which seems like is what is being asked, it would be much more arcade. The old 4WDs were already notorious for having a lot of understeer.

There's also a limit to shifting speeds with manual ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ (linkage friction, clutch engagement, etc). On onboard replays the driver can't even keep up with the audio. Making the shifting faster wouldn't be all that realistic.

Pikes reminds me more of Assetto Corsa, where I spend most of my mental energy managing speed and cornering grip. I use the above setup even on gravel, as the lower chassis will slightly increase cornering grip and reduce understeer.

There's a lot of gnarly stuff you can do with vehicle geometry to make it Lancia 037ish, but it adversely affects corner exit speeds and grip throughout. I personally love the physics on Pikes. I like Germany even more.

Just my initial thoughts and open to counter-arguments.

[flatdarkmars]

I've played with the 405 setup some more, and managed to get it decent. I took out the rear camber, and increased the front negative camber and added some front positive toe. Now it only understeers when it should, i.e. when I'm going way too fast. :) Gets a little loose on tarmac, which it never did before, but it's manageable and pretty fast on both tarmac and dirt. I think the biggest problem with hill climb right now is that the default setups are iffy. On most of the rally and rallycross cars I can start with the default setup and just tweak a few things. The Peugeot hill climb cars seem to need more work to set up properly. I've only driven the Audi a little bit, but it seemed pretty balanced.

[69th_Zeb]

Originally posted by flatdarkmars:

I think the biggest problem with hill climb right now is that the default setups are iffy.

I agree. Though like the 1st gear "debacle" in the RS200...which could be easily fixed in the setups... I consider that a feature.

[tunaphis]

You can make a cup of tea between gear changes.All real video points to this being not right.Real nice track to drive though.

[Wasabi Wei]

Originally posted by Mukatahren:

I find the hill climb cars to be pretty horrible all around. I love DiRT, and I can make good time on the Peak, but the hill climb feels like an arcade game. I've lost interest in it due to the cars.

Same here. Luckily there is plenty else to keep me entertained. I am glad that many people like it, but I don't understand why they do.

[davidcommons]

One HUGE thing I hope Codies to take away from that video, at 3.53. he clips the inside gravel bank, takes a chunk of it away with him, the car doesn't 360 pivot on that impact spot nor does the front end demolish..exactly how real terrain deformation should be, hard to code into a sim but thats the goal right?

[Aurora]

A rally sim - Yes
A terrain deformation sim - No

[davidcommons]

Originally posted by Aurora:

A rally sim - Yes
A terrain deformation sim - No

agreed, but the goal has to be to get closer and closer to real world physics wiith every title, not saying theres anything wrong with the physics we have now but it can always get better.

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

Originally posted by davidcommons:

Originally posted by Aurora:

A rally sim - Yes
A terrain deformation sim - No

agreed, but the goal has to be to get closer and closer to real world physics wiith every title, not saying theres anything wrong with the physics we have now but it can always get better.

If that were the true motivation for all driving-game makers... ....we'd be in a vastly more-advanced situation by now!
...meaning: we would not have had to wait for 11 years to get a game that truely improves upon what that almost-forgotten title named "Richard Burns Rally" brought to the table in 2004(!)

Luckily: it eventually got "modded by brute force" and out of total desperation. Because noone in the industry would - after the commercial failure that was rbr - willingly invest another thought into building a (even more-) realistic rally racer!

What we now have with Dirt Rally is a product that arguably reaches equal ground in terms of simulation accuracy. Maybe edging slightly ahead in some areas, circumventing some problems that the only other relevant title before it would exhibit to the trained eye.

For all the other games in-between these two: the stuff that got "improved" upon merely was marketing and graphics. That's about it. Let me put it this way: if first-person shooter games were "realistic", players would only ever have the chance to die once. But they are not realistic: they are total fantasy!

I am actually glad that all the times I crashed in a racing-sim I never actually hurt myself behind my desk! What I am also glad about is the amount of valid training my sim-driving gave me throughout the years and that it has actually improved my awareness of driving-mechanics in a major way. With Dirt Rally finally bringing the touch of realism back into rally-games that was sorely missed for so long, I can only say "thank you!" for finally re-kindling the passion for real "progress" in rally-sims!

BTT:

I just wanted to add to the discussion: Watching the Peugot film-piece: I can clearly see the driver struggling in low-speed transitions: the car is clearly set-up for medium to high-speed agility. Meaning probably: higher spring-rates and fitting damper-settings than what would be ideal for low-speed handling. Also AWD in it's various "interpretations" can have a major effect on handling. These Pikes-Peak specials (I mean these prototype race-cars) really have enormous power. The driver clearly was struggling for traction and throttle-control in the hairpins. Because of the AWD systems they had back then: driving-technique isn't as straight-forward as most people would think when taking the seat for the first time. That part of the equation is already captured beautifully in Dirt Rally's hillclimb-challenge!

However: the devs have promised a "take 2.0" on all the cars to find it's way into the game before final release. I would not expect that to make all cars easier to drive per say. But they will probably change in their feel a little, probably making for a better understanding of what is going on at the wheels.


The biggest problem that people face today with PikesPeak specials is: Please do not lift out of the throttle too suddenly. Bad things tend to happen that way! Be smooth with your transitions: Do not allow for sudden weight-shifts front-to-back, back-to-front. And be mindful of low-speed maneuvers! Better to miss a perfect speed through a corner or two rather than to hit that wall going backwards!