Re-reading the series: Onikakushi questions and impressions

[a_sa_ro]

I've already watched the anime and read the series once, so I know how it all ends... But I decided to re-read the visual novels and would like to see other people's thoughts on certain aspects of this arc.

• Rena must be a ninja to be able to go to Keiichi's home, go up the stairs, listen to Keiichi's conversation for who knows how long... and then leave without Keiichi's parents noticing. Seriously, the Maebara's living space isn't big enough for Keiichi's dad to not notice her leaving! I found that half strange, half funny.
  
  
• The "Not feeling so hot" tip was SOOOO creepy. Wish they would have included that in the anime. For people who don't remember (anyone who hasn't read the VN in a while, lol), that's the tip when Mion and Rena are talking about Oiishi being Oyashiro-sama's messenger. Their conversation is so serious and then "the silence was interrupted... by loud laughter". I'm guessing it was someone else's laughter but it was so creepy anyway.
  
  
• I've mostly decided that the Yamainu wasn't out to get Keiichi until Rena asked Irie to go to Keiichi's home, but I'm not 100% sure and I would like to hear people's opinion on the matter. First, there's the part where the van supposedly tries to run Keiichi over. I don't think the van was a hallucination (it's hard to believe that he would hallucinate about a van that later on becomes relevant), but if the Yamainu is supposed to capture people at high levels of Hinamizawa Syndrome to examine them, why would they run Keiichi over when that could get him killed? This seems to be supported by the fact that the van beeped before almost colliding with him, but if they *weren't* trying to run him over, why would they not act like any normal driver would and let Keiichi move over before continuing to drive?
  
  
• Also, I believe Keiichi's encounter with two Yamainu soldiers at the dam construction site was a hallucination. We know people at L5 of Hinamizawa Syndrome can hallucinate others attacking them, as Tomitake did before he died - he apparently had believed there were people attacking him and was trying to hit them with a log. Besides, it would be very weird for the Yamainu guys to finally subdue him and then leave him passed out instead of taking him to the clinic, especially when they had a good excuse to do so ("oh, found this unconscious boy, we're going to take him to the clinic so the doctor can check on him"). I think Keiichi unconsciously noticed the uniforms of the guys riding the van and then his mind gave those uniforms to his supposed attackers.
  
  
• Also also, their behaviour in the final night doesn't really make sense to me. If he was so dangerous that he had already murdered two of his classmates over a marker (I believe they were the ones who took the marker, if they had enough time to lift the living room rug they would also have time to check behind the clock), why didn't they send some Yamainu guys to chase him and subdue him? Why did they decide that it was infinitely more important to check his home?
  Why do I think the Yamainu let Keiichi get away? We know that Keiichi wasn't athetic nor much of a runner. If the Yamainu had really followed him, the moment where he stopped in the phone booth they would have caught him for sure.
  
  
• Rena has experienced something like Keiichi's symptoms before and really wants to help him, so why tease him so bad about the cup noodles? She has seen Keiichi acting paranoid lately and she knows from personal experience how bad a person in these conditions can overreact. So why would she act so creepy, saying she was behind him all the time? That didn't make sense to me.
  
  
• Lastly, as Hanyuu's time-stopping powers weren't in the anime, I never noticed how similar her ability is portrayed in Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi compared to Keiichi's "time freezes" - like when time freezes for him right before the van hits him. I thought that was really cool and gave me one more reason to love these novels :)

If I'm wrong about anything or if anyone has a different perspective, it would be really cool to hear it :) Thanks for reading this block of text lol.

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

Also, I believe Keiichi's encounter with two Yamainu soldiers at the dam construction site was a hallucination. We know people at L5 of Hinamizawa Syndrome can hallucinate others attacking them, as Tomitake did before he died - he apparently had believed there were people attacking him and was trying to hit them with a log. Besides, it would be very weird for the Yamainu guys to finally subdue him and then leave him passed out instead of taking him to the clinic, especially when they had a good excuse to do so ("oh, found this unconscious boy, we're going to take him to the clinic so the doctor can check on him"). I think Keiichi unconsciously noticed the uniforms of the guys riding the van and then his mind gave those uniforms to his supposed attackers.

I'm not so sure. I mean, it's certainly possible. But what I think happened is this:

Possibly, they got orders to capture Keiichi, who was at this point showing unmistakable symptoms of Hinamizawa Syndrome, or just to be on the lookout, or some such. So when those two spotted him at the dam, they did try to capture him. And they would have succeeded, except someone showed up, namely Rena. Would she have been able to stop them if they were determined to finish the job? Of course not. They're far too well trained as fighters. But you have to remember that maintaining secrecy is their top priority; even the police don't know about them. If they had allowed someone else to see them, they might have blown their cover, so they must have run away. It does raise the question, though: why didn't they at least keep track of him? But maybe they did, and Rena and Mion's call to Irie gave them a good excuse to take care of things without raising suspicions too much.

Also also, their behaviour in the final night doesn't really make sense to me. If he was so dangerous that he had already murdered two of his classmates over a marker (I believe they were the ones who took the marker, if they had enough time to lift the living room rug they would also have time to check behind the clock), why didn't they send some Yamainu guys to chase him and subdue him? Why did they decide that it was infinitely more important to check his home?
Why do I think the Yamainu let Keiichi get away? We know that Keiichi wasn't athetic nor much of a runner. If the Yamainu had really followed him, the moment where he stopped in the phone booth they would have caught him for sure.

Not really sure. But again, secrecy probably has a part to play in this somehow. They were certainly the ones to remove the lines about the syringe from his note. Even though it turned out to be a delusion, when paired with the part about guys in vans (them), and the mention of how Tomitake died, it could have raised questions they didn't want anyone to ask, given that they coincidentally did actually have secret drugs, and one of them did cause Tomitake's death.

Maybe Takano ordered them to let him go? It would, after all, play right into her plans. Another year, another death from the Curse of Oyashiro-sama.

Rena has experienced something like Keiichi's symptoms before and really wants to help him, so why tease him so bad about the cup noodles? She has seen Keiichi acting paranoid lately and she knows from personal experience how bad a person in these conditions can overreact. So why would she act so creepy, saying she was behind him all the time? That didn't make sense to me.

Good question. All I can say is, even at that point she has psychological problems, as we see with how she reacts to anyone badmouthing Oyashiro-sama. Of course, it could just be she didn't realize how bad a state he was actually in (even though it should have been obvious), and thought that acting in the usual way that they act together would be reassuring, or something. It's also possible that she wasn't actually acting as creepy as Keiichi saw her as; his perceptions were pretty warped, after all.

Lastly, as Hanyuu's time-stopping powers weren't in the anime, I never noticed how similar her ability is portrayed in Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi compared to Keiichi's "time freezes" - like when time freezes for him right before the van hits him. I thought that was really cool and gave me one more reason to love these novels :)

It made me wonder if she was actually involved in that somehow. Incidentally, you know that scene where he goes berserk in the entrance of his house because he thinks someone invisible has been following him? If you didn't figure it out already, that was actually Hanyuu behind him; he thinks he hears "a young girl", but he can't see anyone, only feel their presence. Plus, we know that people in the terminal stage of Hinamizawa Syndrome, for whatever reason, are able to hear, but usually not see, her.

[☠Black Knight]

I just want to say I don't think the Yamainu altered the note or removed the marker. I am certain it was Ooishi who did this. My reason for this is that why would the Yamainu alter the note and not just take the whole thing? The stuff that got removed from the note was the marker (which the note calls a syringe) and the lines about the manager of the construction site being the mastermind.

The line removed from the note would actually benefit the Yamainu. It casts suspicion on a dead guy, who was never affiliated with them. And they didn't do anything about the part detailing the white van or the "several other adults" bit.

Why did Ooishi alter the note? He was desperate for evidence because he was running out of time. The VN says Ooishi was the first to have the note. He removed the obviously crazy parts (the police know the dam manager is dead... they literally have his severed head) and the "syringe" taped to the back which was clearly a marker...

He did this to make the note seem more credible. Otherwise the police would have completely dismissed everything it said as the rantings of a mad man.

[fllthdcrb]

Hmm, you may well be right. Well, the part about the syringe and Tomitake's death were also part of what was removed.

On a side note, while comparing the text in the scripts, I noticed an error in this translation for the first time: Keiichi writes, "...Though you may or may not find my body." But in the epilogue, it reads, "...Though the only difference may be the presence or lack of a body."

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

I'm not so sure. I mean, it's certainly possible. But what I think happened is this:

Possibly, they got orders to capture Keiichi, who was at this point showing unmistakable symptoms of Hinamizawa Syndrome, or just to be on the lookout, or some such. So when those two spotted him at the dam, they did try to capture him. And they would have succeeded, except someone showed up, namely Rena. Would she have been able to stop them if they were determined to finish the job? Of course not. They're far too well trained as fighters. But you have to remember that maintaining secrecy is their top priority; even the police don't know about them. If they had allowed someone else to see them, they might have blown their cover, so they must have run away. It does raise the question, though: why didn't they at least keep track of him? But maybe they did, and Rena and Mion's call to Irie gave them a good excuse to take care of things without raising suspicions too much.

That's perfectly possible as well. What I'm still confused about is Keiichi's reaction when Rena found him. He was talking to her normally (something he hadn't done since Watanagashi) and just leaned on her shoulder to go home. If he had been under attack, I think it's more likely that he would have asked Rena where did the two big guys who were attacking him go, like he did when he woke up home. But it's could also be that he was just momentarily groggy and did not think to ask about them, so the argument could go either way.

Not really sure. But again, secrecy probably has a part to play in this somehow. They were certainly the ones to remove the lines about the syringe from his note. Even though it turned out to be a delusion, when paired with the part about guys in vans (them), and the mention of how Tomitake died, it could have raised questions they didn't want anyone to ask, given that they coincidentally did actually have secret drugs, and one of them did cause Tomitake's death.

Maybe Takano ordered them to let him go? It would, after all, play right into her plans. Another year, another death from the Curse of Oyashiro-sama.

The part about Takano makes sense... after all, she let the Yamainu use an old corpse for her because she thought it went along with the curse. I don't see Irie telling them to let Keiichi go, he would have probably wanted to capture him so they could at least try to heal him.

Good question. All I can say is, even at that point she has psychological problems, as we see with how she reacts to anyone badmouthing Oyashiro-sama. Of course, it could just be she didn't realize how bad a state he was actually in (even though it should have been obvious), and thought that acting in the usual way that they act together would be reassuring, or something. It's also possible that she wasn't actually acting as creepy as Keiichi saw her as; his perceptions were pretty warped, after all.

I have a rule of thumb when interpreting Keiichi's later scenes where the words of the characters did happen, but the tone and their faces while talking didn't. I still don't think it was a good idea to tell him that she was right behind him all the time, especially because she had experienced that tailing feeling with Oyashiro-sama. She misjudged the situation pretty badly.

It made me wonder if she was actually involved in that somehow. Incidentally, you know that scene where he goes berserk in the entrance of his house because he thinks someone invisible has been following him? If you didn't figure it out already, that was actually Hanyuu behind him; he thinks he hears "a young girl", but he can't see anyone, only feel their presence. Plus, we know that people in the terminal stage of Hinamizawa Syndrome, for whatever reason, are able to hear, but usually not see, her.

It could be that it has to do with that. After all, if they're able to perceive her footsteps and her presence, why couldn't they perceive her power too? I think you're on to something.
Yes, I noticed that! When he said it was definitely a young girl I thought about Hanyuu as well. Poor Hanyuu, meaning so well and yet driving everyone even more insane.

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by ☠Black Knight:

I just want to say I don't think the Yamainu altered the note or removed the marker. I am certain it was Ooishi who did this. My reason for this is that why would the Yamainu alter the note and not just take the whole thing? The stuff that got removed from the note was the marker (which the note calls a syringe) and the lines about the manager of the construction site being the mastermind.

The line removed from the note would actually benefit the Yamainu. It casts suspicion on a dead guy, who was never affiliated with them. And they didn't do anything about the part detailing the white van or the "several other adults" bit.

Why did Ooishi alter the note? He was desperate for evidence because he was running out of time. The VN says Ooishi was the first to have the note. He removed the obviously crazy parts (the police know the dam manager is dead... they literally have his severed head) and the "syringe" taped to the back which was clearly a marker...

He did this to make the note seem more credible. Otherwise the police would have completely dismissed everything it said as the rantings of a mad man.

It could be, although I'm not completely convinced... but it's a good theory and we know Ooishi was getting desperate.
I think they weren't aiming to remove the line about the manager, but the line about the unknown drug and Tomitake's death. As the two lines were together, both got removed. I guess that men in white vans can be found anywhere, but the mention of a syringe, the unknown drug and Tomitake's death together were too close to the truth for them to risk it. Although it does make more sense for the Yamainu to take the whole thing than to just rip out a few lines, I never thought about it.
The main reasons why I don't think it was Ooishi are two: first, because of the mention of the living room being out of place. I don't think the police would have mentioned it if they had done it, so to me it's an indication from the author that the Yamainu searched the house before the police did. It could be a red herring, though.
Second, because it was the fact that the note had been ripped in two that reopened the case. If it had been Ooishi who did it, wouldn't he draw attention to that sooner to get it reopened? From the way it's written, it seems that it was another group of cops who noticed that and not Ooishi himself.
Still, your theory is pretty good. I hadn't considered it until now but I like it!

[fllthdcrb]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

Poor Hanyuu, meaning so well and yet driving everyone even more insane.

Indeed. Though you'd think she'd learn not to do that. Hanyuu is weird. So wise in some ways, so foolish in others. Appearing as a young girl even though she was an adult, old enough at least to be a mother, when alive.

[a_sa_ro]

Originally posted by fllthdcrb:

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

Poor Hanyuu, meaning so well and yet driving everyone even more insane.

Indeed. Though you'd think she'd learn not to do that. Hanyuu is weird. So wise in some ways, so foolish in others. Appearing as a young girl even though she was an adult, old enough at least to be a mother, when alive.

I agree. How can someone be so wise and foolish at the same time? That is one thing she should have learned not to do. The other thing that is beyond my comprehension is why she never once in a hundred years decided not to follow Tomitake and see who killed him. They could have saved themselves so much time if they did that!

[PenguinOfTheSands]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

• Rena must be a ninja to be able to go to Keiichi's home, go up the stairs, listen to Keiichi's conversation for who knows how long... and then leave without Keiichi's parents noticing. Seriously, the Maebara's living space isn't big enough for Keiichi's dad to not notice her leaving! I found that half strange, half funny.

The dad did notice, though didn't he? I remember him telling Keichii that Rena basically came by, said she had plans with him, then went upstairs. He also mentioned that he passed by her, when he was coming up the stairs, with the tea. I guess he just didn't assume she had left.

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

The "Not feeling so hot" tip was SOOOO creepy. Wish they would have included that in the anime. For people who don't remember (anyone who hasn't read the VN in a while, lol), that's the tip when Mion and Rena are talking about Oiishi being Oyashiro-sama's messenger. Their conversation is so serious and then "the silence was interrupted... by loud laughter". I'm guessing it was someone else's laughter but it was so creepy anyway.

Yeah that tip gave me the heebie-jeebies too but it also really confused me. Granted, I'm only just now starting the second episode but I'm trying so hard to figure out who's who, who's involved with what and so-on. I have my theories as to what that tip even means, exactly but I don't think it'd even be worth sharing, considering how little I know about the series, so far.

[uanime5]

Originally posted by a_sa_ro:

• The "Not feeling so hot" tip was SOOOO creepy. Wish they would have included that in the anime. For people who don't remember (anyone who hasn't read the VN in a while, lol), that's the tip when Mion and Rena are talking about Oiishi being Oyashiro-sama's messenger.

In the manga they include this in the 3rd story, which makes Ooishi seem more sinister as he's trying to arrest Keiichi.

First, there's the part where the van supposedly tries to run Keiichi over.

Keiichi may have been walking in the middle of road but not realised it. Also they may not have had time to stop.

If he was so dangerous that he had already murdered two of his classmates over a marker (I believe they were the ones who took the marker, if they had enough time to lift the living room rug they would also have time to check behind the clock), why didn't they send some Yamainu guys to chase him and subdue him? Why did they decide that it was infinitely more important to check his home?

I guess they didn't realise he'd killed someone until they went into his house or they assumed the girls were only injured. While it makes sense for them to check his house for more victims it makes no sense why they would assume Keiichi had left any sort of message hidden in his house. Unless there was a trail of bloody footprints leading from the crime scene to his room and the clock.

It's possible that the overall plot hadn't been finalised in this game, which is why the Yamainu act out of character.

I guess that men in white vans can be found anywhere, but the mention of a syringe, the unknown drug and Tomitake's death together were too close to the truth for them to risk it.

In the tips in the first game Ooishi is talking to a doctor about a drug that can cause people to kill themselves, so the police were already thinking about this as it was the most obvious cause. Also referring to a marker as a syringe and claiming the dead manager of the construction site is behind everything would just make Keiichi seem insane, making it easier to dismiss everything he said.

The plot would work just as well if the note and marker weren't altered but people mistakenly assumed someone had altered them because they were contradictory.