The movement is terrible

[Zagrava ✙Δ]

And by that I mean it manages to have several terrible oversights from several different games put into one.

• Why the hell can't I strafe while sprinting? Is this a console game? This artificially limits your movement and this is bad. It was bad in Bad Company 2 and it was agonizing in Hard Reset until Extended Edition.
  
• Why is strafing speed so slow in general? It's not 1991, tank controls are not what we expect in a first-person shooting game. This artificially gimps your situational awareness and this is bad.
  
• What's with the inertia in general? Sometimes it feels like ice skating, the common problem with some Source Engine games. The arena design is already bad enough, being down there with Painkiller or Doom 2, but making navigation even more annoying is even worse.
  
  Though really, the whole game is just missing the point. It feels more like a first-person mod to The Binding of Isaac than an FPS with roguelike elements.
  
• The arenas are flatter than your girlfriend with verticality even worse than your average scripted console shooter from 2012. Again, it reminds me of Painkiller but somehow even more bland.
  
• The weapons are not varied at all. There's nothing wrong with four standard FPS archetypes but there's everything wrong with you not getting them at the proper time which leads me to my next point.
  
• Weapon and ammo drops are not balanced. The way you always have to fall back to your starting peashooter is plain ridiculous. This means choosing the right tool for the job at the right time, the absolute cornerstone of a classic style FPS game, does not exist even in theory here.
  
• The enemies are... not that bad, I suppose, but since arena design is that bad and the enemy/weapon balance cannot carry the game like what happened in Serious Sam, they're as good as Painkiller ones in practice. Which means they're bland and boring.
  
• The movement is terrible. I mean, seriously, why does it control like a console game? Why does it feel like it would play better with top-down view?
  
• First-person platforming. There's not much of it, thankfully, because the arena design is so uninspired, but what exists is a mess. You either need to have full body awareness like in Dark Messiah/Mirror's Edge or have a grab function like in Thief: The Dark Project to make it work. It does not work here.
  
  Overall, I just don't get the point of even making it a first-person game. It's not an FPS. It's not designed like one. It feels like an amateur first-person mod for a twinstick shooter roguelite (by the way, tank controls are bad in twinstick shooters as well, try playing original Postal to see why). There were absolutely no reasons to make it an FPS because the perspective brings absolutely nothing new to the table. It's akin to Wolfenstein 3D which, in turn, feels more like Pac-Man in first person than an FPS as we know it.
  
  Tower of Guns is better because for all its shortcomings and miniscule amount of content, it's designed like an FPS, and a unique one at that.
  Immortal Redneck is leagues better because, again, while its weapon feedback is garbage and the art style looks like the absolute bottom of the barrell designed-by-committee-to-be-as-inoffensive-as-possible mobile shovelware (it's almost like that here too but it does manage to be unique enough), it's designed like a first person shooter, and a unique one at that. However, comparing Ziggurat to Immortal Redneck is like comparing Bubsy 3D to Super Mario 64: it just doesn't even seem fair. The movement there is superb. The arenas are well-designed with lots of verticality. Enemies are varied, they have their proper niches and they actually work well with the environments. Weapon variety is absolutely amazing. "God favors", or rather classes, direct the experience properly.
  
  I guess one good thing about the game is the fact that while the level design is awful, it's not Raven Software "let's make everything an illogical maze" kind of awful. But then again, this also means the similarities to Heretic or Hexen which the marketing strategy seemed to exploit are as superficial as they get.
  
  I also looked at the discussion history and saw that the developer(s?) were perfectly content with making a bad game and whining in response to people's legitimate concerns so I fully understand they won't listen to any feedback, especially today when the game's lifespan is long since over but this particular case is special. The game is borderline false advertising kind of bad. It's not "first-person shooting at its finest". It's not even an FPS game, don't even try to claim it is. I got this game as a gift because some joker thought Immortal Redneck is exactly like this one and I feel ripped off.

[Tenzek]

Most often I see people saying this is if not the best, at least a candidate for the best in the rogue-lite FPS genre. I suppose there is always going to be a small minority in disagreement.

[bluepotatosack]

I agree that not being able to strafe while sprinting is kind of ♥♥♥♥, I'm enjoying it otherwise. Not that I'm all that far yet.

[One X]

This game has the best jumping mechanics of any FPS.

[Hammir]

Originally posted by Zagrava:

And by that I mean it manages to have several terrible oversights from several different games put into one.

• Why the hell can't I strafe while sprinting? Is this a console game? This artificially limits your movement and this is bad. It was bad in Bad Company 2 and it was agonizing in Hard Reset until Extended Edition.
  
• Why is strafing speed so slow in general? It's not 1991, tank controls are not what we expect in a first-person shooting game. This artificially gimps your situational awareness and this is bad.
  
• What's with the inertia in general? Sometimes it feels like ice skating, the common problem with some Source Engine games. The arena design is already bad enough, being down there with Painkiller or Doom 2, but making navigation even more annoying is even worse.
  
  Though really, the whole game is just missing the point. It feels more like a first-person mod to The Binding of Isaac than an FPS with roguelike elements.
  
• The arenas are flatter than your girlfriend with verticality even worse than your average scripted console shooter from 2012. Again, it reminds me of Painkiller but somehow even more bland.
  
• The weapons are not varied at all. There's nothing wrong with four standard FPS archetypes but there's everything wrong with you not getting them at the proper time which leads me to my next point.
  
• Weapon and ammo drops are not balanced. The way you always have to fall back to your starting peashooter is plain ridiculous. This means choosing the right tool for the job at the right time, the absolute cornerstone of a classic style FPS game, does not exist even in theory here.
  
• The enemies are... not that bad, I suppose, but since arena design is that bad and the enemy/weapon balance cannot carry the game like what happened in Serious Sam, they're as good as Painkiller ones in practice. Which means they're bland and boring.
  
• The movement is terrible. I mean, seriously, why does it control like a console game? Why does it feel like it would play better with top-down view?
  
• First-person platforming. There's not much of it, thankfully, because the arena design is so uninspired, but what exists is a mess. You either need to have full body awareness like in Dark Messiah/Mirror's Edge or have a grab function like in Thief: The Dark Project to make it work. It does not work here.
  
  Overall, I just don't get the point of even making it a first-person game. It's not an FPS. It's not designed like one. It feels like an amateur first-person mod for a twinstick shooter roguelite (by the way, tank controls are bad in twinstick shooters as well, try playing original Postal to see why). There were absolutely no reasons to make it an FPS because the perspective brings absolutely nothing new to the table. It's akin to Wolfenstein 3D which, in turn, feels more like Pac-Man in first person than an FPS as we know it.
  
  Tower of Guns is better because for all its shortcomings and miniscule amount of content, it's designed like an FPS, and a unique one at that.
  Immortal Redneck is leagues better because, again, while its weapon feedback is garbage and the art style looks like the absolute bottom of the barrell designed-by-committee-to-be-as-inoffensive-as-possible mobile shovelware (it's almost like that here too but it does manage to be unique enough), it's designed like a first person shooter, and a unique one at that. However, comparing Ziggurat to Immortal Redneck is like comparing Bubsy 3D to Super Mario 64: it just doesn't even seem fair. The movement there is superb. The arenas are well-designed with lots of verticality. Enemies are varied, they have their proper niches and they actually work well with the environments. Weapon variety is absolutely amazing. "God favors", or rather classes, direct the experience properly.
  
  I guess one good thing about the game is the fact that while the level design is awful, it's not Raven Software "let's make everything an illogical maze" kind of awful. But then again, this also means the similarities to Heretic or Hexen which the marketing strategy seemed to exploit are as superficial as they get.
  
  I also looked at the discussion history and saw that the developer(s?) were perfectly content with making a bad game and whining in response to people's legitimate concerns so I fully understand they won't listen to any feedback, especially today when the game's lifespan is long since over but this particular case is special. The game is borderline false advertising kind of bad. It's not "first-person shooting at its finest". It's not even an FPS game, don't even try to claim it is. I got this game as a gift because some joker thought Immortal Redneck is exactly like this one and I feel ripped off.

I think simplicity is the key to the game. It sounds like you want to play a game featuring the tight controls of a Mario Bros. game, the strafing mechanics of Unreal Tournament, the weapon variety of the Fallout Series, the level\vertical design elements of Assassin’s Creed. Let me know when you find that game, I sure would like to play it!

The game is simple, but profound. The design elements are bare, I agree, but overall the aesthetic is unified. The game does keep me coming back for more despite owning some of the games you mentioned.

How about suggesting features you would like to see in the game instead of complaining about what it does not have? And suggest ways in which what you would like to see supported by specific examples? Complaining will just result in being ignored and labeled as a complainer. Offering constructive criticism and supporting an argument with thoughtful solutions earns respect by anyone willing to listen. That is fact.

I don't think the developers made any of the claims you complained about as being missing. Your rant gives me the impression that you expected certain features to be included, but are not. Personally, I like the game. I like it's minimalistic design presentation. Some things I would like see would be some environmental effects such as lighting system. For example, needing to use torches to light areas of the map. Or volumetric fog to shroud areas.

Man, I bought this Toyota Yaris and it does not have the 3.2 litre turbo Audi engine, it does not have climate control like a BMW 535, it does not have GPS like an Escalade, it does not have a tire pressure indicator of a Passat, etc. What was Toyota thinking?

[Plaid]

FWIW, I came across a "Sprint in any direction" card while playing the game earlier today.

I didn't try it out, however.

[Hand's Hermit Permit]

Dev said sprinting is mostly used to just let you get between rooms faster. You do run unreasonably fast when using it, so I tend to agree. The fights aren't balanced around sprint-strafing, sprint's function in combat is to sacrifice shooting to move faster and dodge ♥♥♥♥ (this was a 4 letter word, they made the filter add more hearts so you can't even guess the word now?) or sweep up the pickups. I haven't noticed regular strafing speed being that different from forward speed, though I suppose it could be.

I don't think the mana management is unreasonable. This is ammo management, a basic skill of FPS games, and falls firmly under the "git gud" category. If you make a point to grab the mana pickups instead of staying hanging back and clearing the whole room from one spot, and you don't use nukes just to clear carrots or 1v1 magic armors, you're not going to run out of mana. If you still do, there are characters and perk cards you can choose to make your mana go further, and you can keep in mind that some weapon choices are more mana efficient than others.

The platforming is definitely different than most games though. Part of the problem I think is the lack of feedback you get. When you jump, all you hear is a grunt, and when you land, you hear only the faintest footfall. There needed to have been a solid jump and land sound. This is what makes jump puzzles in Half-Life's first-person platforming not a disaster. Well, that and more midair control.

[Sic.bn]

Yeah the mouse movement is actually terrible, but the game itself is fun so I think its k.. Its k....

[WaaghMan]

Originally posted by Zagrava:

• Why the hell can't I strafe while sprinting? Is this a console game? This artificially limits your movement and this is bad. It was bad in Bad Company 2 and it was agonizing in Hard Reset until Extended Edition.

I can't honestly think of any game that allows Strafe Sprinting (Sprinting: Not able to shoot while running). Not saying there aren't, just that I haven't played any in a long while.

Why is strafing speed so slow in general? It's not 1991, tank controls are not what we expect in a first-person shooting game. This artificially gimps your situational awareness and this is bad.

Strafe speed is exactly the same as forward speed.

What's with the inertia in general? Sometimes it feels like ice skating, the common problem with some Source Engine games. The arena design is already bad enough, being down there with Painkiller or Doom 2, but making navigation even more annoying is even worse.

There's a little inertia but in general is pretty low and manageable. A bit higher in-air if I'm not mistaken.

The arenas are flatter than your girlfriend with verticality even worse than your average scripted console shooter from 2012. Again, it reminds me of Painkiller but somehow even more bland.

Yes, this is true. It's mostly an issue related to enemy behavior: The more complex the level layout is, the more problems enemies have to reach you (so the easier the game is). For example, close quarters enemies are really easy on vertical rooms (unless you drop on them), and AoE enemies are really dangerous on small rooms. So in general the game tends to have rather open areas with a few obstacles, and most enemy behaviors are designed around that.

Weapon and ammo drops are not balanced. The way you always have to fall back to your starting peashooter is plain ridiculous. This means choosing the right tool for the job at the right time, the absolute cornerstone of a classic style FPS game, does not exist even in theory here.

Sorry but this is a plain lie. Sure, there may not be enough mana at all times so you may have to fall back to the wand at some times (depending on perks and specific weapons), but that doesn't mean you can't choose the right tool for the job and decide when it's better to use a powerful, high mana usage weapon or a more economic one.

First-person platforming. There's not much of it, thankfully, because the arena design is so uninspired, but what exists is a mess. You either need to have full body awareness like in Dark Messiah/Mirror's Edge or have a grab function like in Thief: The Dark Project to make it work. It does not work here.

I think the problem with this is the lack of feet below you, which makes you believe you can get a bit further than you actually do. When doing jumps (in this and many other FPS platformers), there's a tendency to stop movement before reaching the platform. The game isn't that demanding on forward precision when jumping, so it's usually better to land a bit forward to avoid that from happening.


I don't really understand why you say the game uses Tank controls, it uses a standard WASD+Mouse layout.

As for us not caring, maybe you don't know we did an Early Access and most people were really pleased with the way we covered it. It's just that the game was released almost 3 years ago and we haven't done updates for a while (we're however gathering all feedback for future developments).

[My Name is Mud]

I agree with virtually every point. I nearly bought this game twice in the past and it was one of a couple games I got the Humble Bundle for, and it's... really not even close to being good.

[Plaid]

I think the game controls just fine, really. Maybe a bit more slippery than some games but nothing I couldn't adjust to.
I've been trying the Steam Controller with this game lately and it's working out well.

[Rydychyn]

I disagree with virtually every point. I got this from Humble after following it for years, very disappointed I didn't buy it earlier, it's a great game.

[xycotta]

Originally posted by Rydychyn:

I disagree with virtually every point. I got this from Humble after following it for years, very disappointed I didn't buy it earlier, it's a great game.

+1

[Vitek R]

Yeah, i paid a buck for it on the humble bundle and its maybe the worst Roguelike I have ever played. My best single word for the game is just "soulless". All the design, from the aesthetic to the progression system is the most bland thing I have ever seen. The level geometry is just too simplistic both visually and gameplay wise and the entire challenge of the game is from enemies that use insane prediction to lead you, or homing projectiles. Its either mindnumblingly simple, or just tank mode race against time to out DPS the thousands of homing projectiles and motion predicted AOE artillery shells.

Its a totally competent game technically. I mean, it works, and certainly is a game. But thats about all I can say about it thats positive.

[Cryoburner]

OP has 0.8 hours on record, and probably spent more time writing this post than playing the game, so I have a hard time taking this thread seriously. -_-

Originally posted by Zagrava:

Why the hell can't I strafe while sprinting? Is this a console game? This artificially limits your movement and this is bad. It was bad in Bad Company 2 and it was agonizing in Hard Reset until Extended Edition.

There is a simple answer to this. Look at your legs. Unless you are some kind of crab or something, you should notice that your knees bend backward, and not in some other direction. Because of this, it is highly unlikely that you can sprint as fast sideways as you can forward.

As for the game, I don't see a reason to complain about not being able to sprint sideways, since the default movement speed is reasonably fast as it is. You're already running. The sprinting speed is much faster than the speed you'll be able to move in most other games, so it can be thought of as an enhancement to your existing movement, rather than a limitation. Sprinting is for those times when you need to quickly dive in and grab some item drops, or to escape when you're surrounded by enemies, or to speed up running from one room to the next. There are also some perks (as well as unlockable characters that start with them) that allow you to move at even faster speeds.

Honestly, I find the game's controls to be perfectly fine. It sounds like Ziggurat might control a bit differently from some other games you've played, and because of that, you dismiss the game as having a problem, rather than bothering to attempt to learn the controls.

Originally posted by Zagrava:

The weapons are not varied at all. There's nothing wrong with four standard FPS archetypes but there's everything wrong with you not getting them at the proper time which leads me to my next point.

I've found the weapons to be quite varied, and you unlock additional weapon pickups the more you play. You may not have noticed, since you probably didn't play long enough to pick up more than a few weapons, but there are a number of different weapons that can be carried in a given slot, and even the default wand will behave differently depending on which unlockable player character you use. In all, there are around 30 different spellbooks, staves and alchemic weapons, plus a different variation on the base wand for each character, each with an alternate fire mode. In your limited time with the game, you probably only tried a few of these, and jumped to the conclusion that those were all the game had to offer.

Originally posted by Zagrava:

Immortal Redneck is leagues better because...

That game just came out a few weeks ago, while this one is almost a few years old. As such, its developers had a chance to play this game, and build off its ideas. And apparently they liked Ziggurat, seeing as the developer who posts the most in their forum has played 44 hours of it. It's certainly possible that they improved some things, and maybe you feel that game fits your individual preferences better, but that doesn't mean this game, released years earlier, has a problem for not being exactly like it.

Originally posted by Zagrava:

I also looked at the discussion history and saw that the developer(s?) were perfectly content with making a bad game and whining in response to people's legitimate concerns so I fully understand they won't listen to any feedback, especially today when the game's lifespan is long since over but this particular case is special. The game is borderline false advertising kind of bad. It's not "first-person shooting at its finest". It's not even an FPS game, don't even try to claim it is. I got this game as a gift because some joker thought Immortal Redneck is exactly like this one and I feel ripped off.

Seeing as Ziggurat has around a 90% recommended rating on Steam with over 2000 reviews, the vast majority of players apparently don't feel that it's a "bad game". And from what I've seen in this forum since I recently got the game, the developers are still fairly active here even years after its launch, and seem to take part in conversations and listen to feedback. They obviously can't please everyone, as different people will naturally want different things.

Also, claims like "It's not even an FPS game" are downright silly. It's a game where you shoot at things from a first-person perspective. That is pretty much the definition of an FPS game.