What's up with the P-47

[Shibbyland]

Behaviour with flap extended is bizarre. Any plans to improve its flight model?

[Finney]

Check your approach speed, should be around 120 MPH. I noticed nothing "bizarre" with the P-47.

Have a watch of this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehIP9YLek1Q

[Shibbyland]

Oh thanks but I dont mean for the approach. The aircrafts performance at low speed in combat just seems really strange. It'll just about hang off the prop full power, full flap which isn't so bad (some aircraft can do that, I doubt a P47 was one of them) but you can turn using reasonably large angles of bank which is odd.

It doesn't seem to accelerate very well in level flight, it's very slow. I'm finding it a pretty terrible dog fighter for single player since missions tend to be low level so as soon as you get attacked by 109s or 190s its over.

[Finney]

The P-47D is a heavy bird, slow is not it's strong point. It is a very capable plane. It needs to be understood and flown properly.

Watch this video, der sheriff explains it in great detail. All your concerns will be answered, it will all make sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHuh-yc8xv8

[God´s Mom]

Originally posted by Shibbyland:

Oh thanks but I dont mean for the approach. The aircrafts performance at low speed in combat just seems really strange. It'll just about hang off the prop full power, full flap which isn't so bad (some aircraft can do that, I doubt a P47 was one of them) but you can turn using reasonably large angles of bank which is odd.

It doesn't seem to accelerate very well in level flight, it's very slow. I'm finding it a pretty terrible dog fighter for single player since missions tend to be low level so as soon as you get attacked by 109s or 190s its over.

The P-47 is not meant to be flown like that...
The P-47 is an high altitude interceptor/ long range escort plane meant to escort bombers. It is a very capable ground attacker too

[unknown]

Originally posted by Shibbyland:

Oh thanks but I dont mean for the approach. The aircrafts performance at low speed in combat just seems really strange. It'll just about hang off the prop full power, full flap which isn't so bad (some aircraft can do that, I doubt a P47 was one of them) but you can turn using reasonably large angles of bank which is odd.

It doesn't seem to accelerate very well in level flight, it's very slow. I'm finding it a pretty terrible dog fighter for single player since missions tend to be low level so as soon as you get attacked by 109s or 190s its over.

Nope thats just how the P-47 was. There are some interesting interviews with some of the people who flew them.

[Disarray]

The flight model as it pertains to flaps is a little, special. Ya, special is what I'll call it. Generally the flaps are too effective and too resilient to falling off when deployed at high speeds. The 47 isn't the only plane where this can be seen but it is one of the more obvious examples.

[Shadowfrost]

Originally posted by Disarray:

The flight model as it pertains to flaps is a little, special. Ya, special is what I'll call it. Generally the flaps are too effective and too resilient to falling off when deployed at high speeds. The 47 isn't the only plane where this can be seen but it is one of the more obvious examples.

Don't forget... Most aircraft don't have enough induced drag or drag in general, flaps included.

[heartc]

How do you know? The Dora barely gets to its rated top speed at sea level during summertime, for example. And induced drag is difficult to quantify, outside of putting down a number of equations or flying the planes iRL at combat performance, something that never happens with current day Warbirds.

I don't get the impression there is a problem with drag compared to all the other sims I've flown at least, I got no surprises, and for current standards, I find them to behave very similar to IL-2 CloD and DCS.

[Disarray]

In broad cases the FM is rather good in IL2. It is in the edge cases that it shows weakness. I would encourage you to play around with planes. Do stupid things that you wouldn't normally think to do. One of my favorites is to take a BF-110 up to about 4 or 5 Km, turn the engines off and put it into a vertical dive. It will dive faster than a P-39 in a powered on dive. Take that same 110 up and do the dive again but this time with power, and marvel at the plane's ability to reach speeds of more than 920 Kph without falling apart; well at least before hitting the ground. Or take the 110 lighten it as much as you can and put it into a turning match with a Spitfire and watch as it makes it around the circle in one or two circles with the Spitfire pilot all but blacking out while the 110 pilot only starts into the grey out. Try a cobra in a 110, I can just about manage that one though the exit is a bit sloppy. Perhaps I need more 110 cobra practice?

Under most circumstances I'd chalk this up to it being a simulation and no sim can be 100% accurate and leave it at that. But these edge cases are rather broad and provide a lot of room for exploitation. This gives players ways to find and utilize things that are in the game but have no place and so gain an unfair advantage over other players. Personally, I can restrain myself from utilizing such methods to gain that unfair advantage but others cannot or do not. Nothing makes a game less fun than when someone runs a cheese exploit like that just so they can win.

[heartc]

OK, that sounds...interesting. Wasn't aware of that.

[heartc]

Now that you told me of these things, it brings back memories. Are you aware, Disarray, that there is an ancient book that tells of exploits such as these, and the wrath that came upon those who would indulge in them?

[Disarray]

You think that wrath is bad? Try telling the guy that just cheesed the ♥♥♥♥ out of a 110 to beat you in a fight why he was able to win. There are some who say there is nothing worse than a woman scorned. These people never met a lufwaffle who has had their 'superior' German tech questioned.

[unknown]

Originally posted by Disarray:

You think that wrath is bad? Try telling the guy that just cheesed the ♥♥♥♥ out of a 110 to beat you in a fight why he was able to win. There are some who say there is nothing worse than a woman scorned. These people never met a lufwaffle who has had their 'superior' German tech questioned.

Oh yea the german tech fans are crazy. I mean the german technology is literally why there are so damn many german wwii reenactment groups. People really like their guns, tanks, and planes. and when you question it they loose it. I will say they are better, but are much harder to use properly and master than the planes from all other countries. Which is ok when you have people who have mastered the plane. But like anything they have their downside which are people who have not mastered the plane which is why I don't consider it as good as other aircraft. A good aircraft is one that someone with minimal training can pick up an fly when it comes to war time. And that is where the german stuff failed.

[Disarray]

My favorite aspect of it all is how wrapped up some of these people get with it. If you point out they won a fight because of some flaw in the FM, and that they could not do what they did in another plane that can't be exploited in the same way, they take it as a personal attack. You have somehow impuned upon their honor! The cheek and gaul of it! The same guys will often accuse people of cheating if they somehow managed to beat their uber190 by such underhanded means as diving on them from a much greater altitude. I guess this little tangent can be summed up by saying dumb people are dumb, and also fun to mock. And the FM could stand to be fixed up in some places.

[heartc]

Originally posted by Disarray:

You think that wrath is bad? Try telling the guy that just cheesed the ♥♥♥♥ out of a 110 to beat you in a fight why he was able to win. There are some who say there is nothing worse than a woman scorned. These people never met a lufwaffle who has had their 'superior' German tech questioned.

I see thou doest not knoweth what I speaketh of. I bid thy patience whilst I head for the library.