Legal clarification, please

[Skybird]

You say in your product description that you use the Zebra engine. Zebra is around since over ten years now. Made by Gunnar Anderson and Lars Ivansson, the software "Zebra Reversi" was declared freeware by the authors in 2006, and then no longer further developed. Zebra still is available as free PC game download, and has seen a new version for Android being done, DroidZebra, also for free.

Has the author been given his permission to you that you use his engine in a commercial product? Because on his homepage he clearly states: "The program is freeware and may be copied freely as long as no modifications are made - this is our way of trying to give something back to the Internet Othello community. >>>It may not be used for any commercial purposes without the explicit consent of its creators. <<< Source: http://radagast.se/othello/download.html

[MPO]

Uh-oh.

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

Howdy! :) There are two separate issues here. Zebra & German Trademark.

== Zebra ==
First off is Zebra. Zebra is GPL (at least the version I used), so it means I have to keep all of my modifications Open Source and release them as GPL, then that's legit for how that license works.

The changes I made were to make it so that Zebra can communicate over the command-line, so that it can build on modern computers (it's been a while since Zebra) and to make sure it compiles cross-platform (it didn't compile on OSX before). I call that animal "BlueZebra". BlueZebra is also GPL. You could use it to power your own games / game-analyzers, heck even a Reversi twitter-bot if you feel like :)

I just pushed "Publish" on the post which gives more info on how to use it and stuff. I'll have to review it today to make sure it's still accurate (I wrote the post right after I finished BlueZebra which was months ago, but I just reviewed it... still correct):
http://bluelinegamestudios.com/posts/introducing-bluezebra-a-gpl-command-line-reversi-ai/

So that's the easy one... :)

== German Trademarks ==
I vaguely recall hearing a rumor that someone had trademarked Reversi in Germany. It sounded a bit absurd... does anyone own "Chess" yet, or should I file that one right away? ;) It looks like there really is a trademark[register.dpma.de]. Insane.

Anyway... I'll be wasting the next several hours figuring that out between other things. It's highly likely we'll have to remove the game in Europe or release another, differently-branded version, then perhaps attack their Trademark to get it revoked (if it works like it does in the US).

Just to be clear: I'm not opposed to licensing trademarks (obviously: both of our other games are licensed) and would actually love to license Othello once that license is available again, but unless there is some history that I'm not aware of, trademarking "reversi" is flat-out IP-trolling (like trademarking "Chess" or "Water"), so I'd be morally opposed to licesning it and would rather spend that same money (or more) to challenge the trademark rather than capitulate.

[Skybird]

Hi again,

I buy your explanation of Zebra GPL-version being used. Please don't take offence from me asking about it, but long time ago I have been victim of theft (written work) myself, and I repeatedly had to take note of abusive commercial use of free mods for free games like Silent Hunter series, I also beloeve that theft should be punished and that there is no excuse for picking up and use without permission what is not yours.

I am German, and I vaguely recall to once have snapped up that there is a copyright thing about the use of the name "Reversi" on the German market indeed. It is stupid, I completely agree on that, but you better check that one out for sure, just to be on the safe side in case of - whatever. If there is a copyright for the name, then it most likely is the boardgame company named Ravensburger. All board editions of recent times showing the title "Reversi" on the box, are published by Ravensburger indeed, it seems. Exceptions of "Reversi" boardgames sold by other makers, are only very old editions sold as second hand items, it seems.

Just asking this for curiosity: what has Zebra by Gunnar Anderson (engine) and Lars Ivansson (GUI) to do with Zebra by Ishiguru and Yoshikawa? I am confused.

Good luck.

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

Yeah, it does look like Ravensburger has the German and EU trademarks. If we decide to challenge the trademarks, it will be quite a process.

We've already started to talk to valve about how we can handle it in the EU (it would be best to just have the game present a different name in those markets, but I don't know if Steam can do that).

I had to google the Zebra by Ishiguru and Yoshikawa, I don't think that's related to Reversi at all... that appears to be a networking thing. This is the page where I got the GPL'ed code I snagged: http://www.radagast.se/othello/zebra.html ...as a curiosity, I wonder if anyone knows where "Radagast" is... I tried to find him on the internet to find about BlueZebra, but he doesn't seem to be around anymore. I'd hope he would think this project is cool :)

[lockstep]

sean.colombo eredeti hozzászólása:

It's highly likely we'll have to remove the game in Europe or release another, differently-branded version ...

What would this mean for Europeans that already bought your game (like myself)?

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

@dwight: that's good news. Then we'd be able to sell it to that region with very little overhead other than building/pushing two versions. We might even be able to automate that.

@lockstep: I honestly don't know yet, but the ideal situation would be to just convert everyone in those countries to the newer, rebranded version if that's what goes down. Once we know what's happening, I'll update this thread (and almost certainly make an Announcement on the app to help clear things up). Sorry for the uncertainty.

[Skybird]

sean.colombo eredeti hozzászólása:

Yeah, it does look like Ravensburger has the German and EU trademarks. If we decide to challenge the trademarks, it will be quite a process.

We've already started to talk to valve about how we can handle it in the EU (it would be best to just have the game present a different name in those markets, but I don't know if Steam can do that).

I had to google the Zebra by Ishiguru and Yoshikawa, I don't think that's related to Reversi at all... that appears to be a networking thing. This is the page where I got the GPL'ed code I snagged: http://www.radagast.se/othello/zebra.html ...as a curiosity, I wonder if anyone knows where "Radagast" is... I tried to find him on the internet to find about BlueZebra, but he doesn't seem to be around anymore. I'd hope he would think this project is cool :)

Note that you quote the same site radagast that I quoted - including the quote I gave in my first posting.

Confusing.

Maybe contact that yahoo group of theirs.

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

skybird05 eredeti hozzászólása:

Maybe contact that yahoo group of theirs.

The last entry was in April of 2013... but I'll leave them a message about BlueZebra :) hopefully they can roll some of the changes back into WZebra to make it easier to compile on modern computers, and on OS X. :)

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

I left a big post on their Yahoo Group, but that interface is horrible and I can't even find it to give you a link. Maybe it's just awaiting moderation or something?

I found a thread in there from 2010 where Gunnar (Radagast) said he basically left Othello (ie: Reversi) and had been focusing on Scrabble for a while. I guess after a decade or so, people need to switch games :D

Hopefully they'll merge back some changes though. Too bad most of this came before something like Github for collaborative coding or I could have just submitted a pull-request while I was making changes.

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

For the renaming thing... Valve no longer supports multiple app-ids for the same game. They said they used to but they don't do it anymore.

So, we're stuck with exactly one name. We're planning to rename, hopefully as early as next month if all goes really well, or maybe the month after that. We'll see how fast we can do it!

[mnemonic]

sean.colombo eredeti hozzászólása:

Howdy! :) There are two separate issues here. Zebra & German Trademark.

== Zebra ==
First off is Zebra. Zebra is GPL (at least the version I used), so it means I have to keep all of my modifications Open Source and release them as GPL, then that's legit for how that license works.

The changes I made were to make it so that Zebra can communicate over the command-line, so that it can build on modern computers (it's been a while since Zebra) and to make sure it compiles cross-platform (it didn't compile on OSX before). I call that animal "BlueZebra". BlueZebra is also GPL. You could use it to power your own games / game-analyzers, heck even a Reversi twitter-bot if you feel like :)

I just pushed "Publish" on the post which gives more info on how to use it and stuff. I'll have to review it today to make sure it's still accurate (I wrote the post right after I finished BlueZebra which was months ago, but I just reviewed it... still correct):
http://bluelinegamestudios.com/posts/introducing-bluezebra-a-gpl-command-line-reversi-ai/

So that's the easy one... :)

== German Trademarks ==
I vaguely recall hearing a rumor that someone had trademarked Reversi in Germany. It sounded a bit absurd... does anyone own "Chess" yet, or should I file that one right away? ;) It looks like there really is a trademark[register.dpma.de]. Insane.

Anyway... I'll be wasting the next several hours figuring that out between other things. It's highly likely we'll have to remove the game in Europe or release another, differently-branded version, then perhaps attack their Trademark to get it revoked (if it works like it does in the US).

Just to be clear: I'm not opposed to licensing trademarks (obviously: both of our other games are licensed) and would actually love to license Othello once that license is available again, but unless there is some history that I'm not aware of, trademarking "reversi" is flat-out IP-trolling (like trademarking "Chess" or "Water"), so I'd be morally opposed to licesning it and would rather spend that same money (or more) to challenge the trademark rather than capitulate.

Hi. Isn't GPL mean if you link to anything GPL, you are also GPL? So, if you used GPL, you would need to open up your source. Correct me if I am wrong ...

PS: I am thinking of buying this game but just saw this post.

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

@mnemonic: roughly, yeah. If you use GPL in a program, you have to make that code-base GPL'ed. Which is what we did... we built BlueZebra which is a command-line program that exposes a configurable AI based on the Zebra stuff. You can get that program (and it's source) completely free and also under GPL: http://bluelinegamestudios.com/posts/introducing-bluezebra-a-gpl-command-line-reversi-ai/

We use BlueZebra as our AI engine, and you can too! :)

If you do make something cool with it, I'd love to know... it's a really powerful engine, and I'm glad people can easily use it in other stuff now.

[mnemonic]

@sean: Thanks for the reply. What I mean is, if Reversi is linked to a GPL program, then Reversi becomes GPL as how I understand it. One cannot say Reversi (i.e. App A) is a closed source but linked to GPL (i.e. App B) and App B has been modified in which is also GPL; then App A is closed and App B is open.

In this case, Reversi is closed but BlueZebra is open since BlueZebra has been modified, which is what you are talking about as I understand it (unless I misunderstood the whole thing). In my mind, BlueZebra is modified and is open and Reversi ought to be open as well.

I hope I have not miscommunicated. Would like to resolve it so I can go buy from Humble Bundle to support developers whilst I can still get the offer ;)

[≓Sean Colombo≒]

@mnemonic: You're correct about linking. If Reversi was linked to a library of AI code, it would have to be GPL, but it isn't. For example: if I had distributed BlueZebra as a library in .dll/.so/.dylib format) then all programs using BlueZebra would have to be GPL also. BlueZebra is a program though, and it's a separate executable that runs in its own process, etc..

There are plenty of people who do a better job explaining GPL than I could ever hope to though :) here is a pretty good summary of the specific use-case you're referring to: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/a/110401

[mnemonic]

@sean: I understand, you are saying that BlueZebra is a stand-alone process and Reversi is another stand-alone process and they just talk to each other. Have I got that right so far? Since data is passed between different processes, Reversi is somehow exempt from GPL.

This part I am uncertain off and I think I will end it here. I cannot remember LGPL for server software (and guessing GPL works the same) i.e. new and old licence. Old licence is more permissive and new licence version for server is, if something even touches LGPL then then it also becomes LGPL.

BTW, good chat.